Just how many hoops should you have to jump through to join an email list, anyway?

I understand wanting background checks for buying weapons, but to join a dog diet email list?

My Val has PLN, a progressive kidney disease common in Greyhounds. I was thinking of making some diet and supplement changes, and went to join a list I used to belong to, the K9KidneyDiet Yahoo Group.

I filled out the brief form Yahoo provides, and got this in reply:

Hello, and thank you for requesting membership to the K9KDiet Group. Please take a moment to provide us with the following information:   (NOTE:  The short comment that was filled out at the YahooGroups site when requesting an application for membership does NOT supercede or take the place of the following Membership Application).

The initial inquiry you sent to Yahoo is held for 5 days. If the Membership Application (below) is not completed and returned we will understand you changed your mind, and will remove the initial inquiry from pending.

PLEASE NOTE:
WE TAKE THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF OUR MEMBERS VERY SERIOUSLY. TO THAT END, A CONDITION OF INITIAL AND CONTINUED MEMBERSHIP IS VERIFIABLE, ACCURATE, AND COMPLETE INFORMATION WHICH IDENTIFIES YOU AS WHO YOU STATE YOURSELF TO BE. THIS INFORMATION IS NEVER SHARED WITH THE LIST MEMBERSHIP, AND LIMITED EXCLUSIVELY TO THE LIST OWNERS AND MODERATORS FOR VERIFICATION PURPOSES.

NOTE:  We REQUIRE to know your PAID PRIMARY Email Address (i.e., Comcast, Aol, Earthlink, etc... ).  This is for VERIFICATION purposes.

Also note that none of the (below) information will be shared or conveyed to any group member at any time.   It is MANDATORY that you answer ALL the questions, completely and accurately to be considered for membership.

1.) Paid Primary Email Account (Mandatory):

2.) The email account you intend to use for mail from this group:

3.) Your Full Name , Address, City/State, and Phone:

4.) Kennel Name (if Applicable):

5.)Your website (if Applicable):

6.) The breed of dog(s) you own:

7.) A short intro/reason as to why you wish to join K9KidneyDiet (i.e., is your dog in renal failure, does he/she have bladder stones, chronic urinary tract infections, etc.):

8.)

(a) How did you learn about this list?

(b)If from a fellow member, or other individual, please include their name:

9.) Are you a list owner and/or moderator of any other pet-related online group?  Please list all:

10.) Are you a member of any other pet-related online group? Please list all:

11.) Do you own or work for a pet-related company? Please explain:

12.) Are you a Veterinary Professional? A Medical Professional? Please list your position and affiliation:

THE  APPROACH TO KIDNEY DISEASES IS NOT 'ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL'. MEMBERS HERE HAVE GAINED QUITE A LOT OF FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE WITH THEIR OWN DOGS OVER MANY YEARS AND IT IS THAT WHICH WE SHARE. WE ARE NOT VETERINARIANS. MEMBERS WILL NOT, AND CANNOT DIAGNOSE OR PRESCRIBE. THEY SIMPLY SHARE WHAT THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES HAVE BEEN. No member claims to have a "magic bullet" or the know-how for curing any ailment. Opinions expressed on this list are not necessarily those of the list owners, &/or moderators. What may work for one dog may not work for another.  IT IS UP TO EACH MEMBER TO FULLY RESEARCH ANYTHING READ ON K9KIDNEYDIET AND TO DISCUSS IT WITH THEIR OWN VETERINARIAN(S).

WE STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT THE BETTER WE UNDERSTAND KIDNEY DISEASE THE BETTER PREPARED WE CAN BE TO HELP OUR DOGS.  WE ALSO ADVOCATE FORGING PARTNERSHIPS WITH OUR VETERINARIANS. WE FEEL THE BEST OUTCOMES COMBINE OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE DISEASE WITH STRONG PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR DOGS’ VETERINARY TEAM.

The diet of a renal dog can seldom stay the same for long. Predictable changes in taste & preference are a challenge. Experiences are shared on how others have handled similar situations. K9KD is not a storehouse of recipes. Each dog is unique in presentation, and preferences. Focus is on home - prepared foods. It is expected that while not all will agree on feeding methods and treatment protocols, all members will treat each other with respect in regard to individual opinions.

While K9KDiet is a supportive group, it is important to point out that we are not a Support Group, and our focus is on discussion and understanding of the physical aspects of kidney diseases and associated complications. Regardless, an emotionally supportive and respectful environment is expected at all times. Flaming, disrespect, sarcasm & passive aggressive behavior is not permitted.

K9KDIET IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY OTHER GROUP, FORUM, OR LIST.
Upon approval to the group, a questionnaire will be emailed along with informational documents that other list members found helpful in the beginning.  The questionnaire provides a point of reference in regard to what you have done so far with your dog, what your dogs' Veterinarian has advised, and what treatment plan you have chosen.

We ask you to refrain from asking general questions before submitting the questionnaire. It is difficult, if not impossible to form a credible overall 'picture' of your dog via multiple emails over a period of days. We have found the questionnaire to be a reliable and time saving method to create a 'snapshot' with which to begin.

********  DISCLAIMER: K9KDiet is a list for sharing ideas, opinions and information only. The information on K9KD is not intended to be used as veterinary advice, or to replace consultation with a qualified Veterinarian. WE ARE NOT VETERINARIANS, (although we have Veterinarian members), and WE DO NOT PRESCRIBE. No member claims to have a "magic bullet" or the know-how for curing any ailment. Opinions expressed on this list are not necessarily those of the list owners, &/or moderators. What may work for one dog may not work for another. To that end, it is up to each individual member- individually and independently - to thoroughly research anything shared on this list and to speak to their Veterinarian. K9KD OWNERS, MODERATORS, AND MEMBERS, SHALL BE HELD HARMLESS FROM ANY GRIEVANCE OR ACTION BY ANY LIST MEMBER.   NOTE: K9KD POSTS AND FILES AND/OR PORTIONS THEREOF ARE COPYRIGHTED, AND MAY NOT BE REPRODUCED, FORWARDED or SHARED without express written permission from both the author and the list owners.

YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF MEMBERSHIP ACKNOWLEDGES YOUR AGREEMENT WITH AND ACCEPTANCE OF THE TERMS STATED ABOVE.

Promotion, marketing, and/or sales of any product to K9KD members is not allowed, on or off list.  If any member contacts you with offers to sell or promote any specific product or service, we ask that you notify us by sending an email to [email protected]

At first I laughed, then I got pissed off, and then I just had to come here and share this paranoid insanity with you all.

I own and have owned many email lists. I get wanting a disclaimer. I get wanting to know a little bit about the people joining your list. I get reminding them of the "rules of the road."  But there is no shortage of places to get information about canine kidney diets without having to give fingerprints and a DNA sample.

Like here.

So by all means, K9KidneyDiet moderator, remove my application from your files. I wonder how many people have been so desperate to get information to help their sick dogs they just gritted their teeth and filled this out? And I wonder how many, like me, just walked away -- people who perhaps didn't have the skills and experience to find the information they needed somewhere else?

Sad and bizarre.

Comments

[Lis Carey]

My primary email address is my Gmail address. My Comcast address, well, I know I theoretically have one, let's leave it at that. They don't get to arbitrarily decide what my "primary" address is, or to require that it be a *paid* email address.

I have very little incentive to give my street address or my phone number to strangers running an email list.

The questions after that are just nosy and paranoid. "Tell us a little about yourself" would be reasonable. It's probably reasonable to ask veterinary professionals to identify themselves as such, given the purpose of the list. And, absolutely, have a disclaimer.

But, basically, these sound like people I would not want to have anything to do with.

[Cheryl McGregor]

What if you don't have a paid primary email account? I never got one through my dsl provider. The day's of everyone having an ISP provided email are long gone.

I'd also be interested in how they would verify your name, address etc. Not everyone is in a phonebook and I can't imagine them spending money for a verification service. I guess they could google map the address but that doesn't prove anything.

I can only believe that at some point they got scammed by a troll and that is the reason they are so paranoid.

BTW Try B-Naturals - Lew has a newsletter and forum for diets. http://b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=newsletters

[TheDIYdog]

O.o
Wow. Just wow.

[Susan]

That's bleeding insane. I don't think I had to give that much information to become a rescue volunteer! (I did have a phone chat with someone, but still, the application was simpler.)

[Dogthusiast]

Wow. I also don't have a "paid" email address - I haven't for eons having my own domains for over 10 years now. Many (maybe even most) professionals I know in the computer business use gmail and/or their work addresses. No idea how an Earthlink trumps that, or really makes a difference. There are much better ways of doing this!

Putting on my "moderator of forum and email list communities both personally and professionally" hat: wow. And back when the fancy tools to deal with spam/trolls didn't exist! How strange and way over the top! K9KidneyDiet: yer doin' it wrong. -- Jen.

[YesBiscuit!]

I have come across a few like this in past. My membership inquiry presumably ended up being filed in the "we'll assume you have changed your mind" category on their end since I didn't pursue. On my end, I put them in the "I presume you have lost your mind" file.

[John]

I bet they're a lot of fun to go out to dinner with.

[Darkmstf]

Oh my goodness! What a sad state of affairs it is that the list I used to own and run has come to this! Christie, I don't blame you for telling them to go fly a kite. I would have! For numerous reasons! Prepaid email accounts are redundant to ask for in this day and age (I don't know anyone who actually *pays* for email anymore!), and to ask for your *full* address AND phone number???? That's asking alot re: privacy issues. I think when I ran the list we just asked "city/state". We did NOT have all those disclaimers and waivers and clauses throughout that ... it is the height of paranoid insanity!

[Cheryl McGregor]

Lew has a nutrition group too. She has PHD in pet nutrition. [email protected] - there are a lot of great people on her lists. really helpful.

[Christie Keith]

Lew and I are good friends, I'm a co-moderator of her group (although currently inactive), and I wrote the forward to her book. I just remembered in the past that the kidney diet list was a good resource as well. It's a shame that has changed. :(

[Kathy Johnson]

K9KidneyDiet used to be a great list. I was on it when the first owner still had it, and left after I lost that 'kidney dog'. Two years later I rejoined when another of my dogs developed renal issues, and was shocked to find out how much it had changed. The first list owner passed it along to one of the co-moderators due to some life issues that prevented her from being as involved as she wanted to be. The list got very restrictive and more than a bit hostile after that. If someone questioned the new list owner, they got reamed for it.
I'm glad that I did a lot of research on CRF, learned how to do sub-q fluids and developed an Excel spreadsheet to help me feed my 'kidney dogs' a tightly controlled home-prepared diet. If (doG forbid) I ever have another dog with kidney issues, I will just deal with it myself. I won't be going back to K9KD again.

[Kathy Johnson]

I just realized that I'm still a member of the K9KD group (but probably not for much longer). For some reason I put myself on no-mail instead of unsubbing after Slate died. Just for giggles, I sent a link to this blog post to the list. I got a response saying that my post had to be approved by a moderator before it would be sent through to the list. So that means that at least one moderator will see it before it gets sent to Internet Heaven... :)
I wonder if any of them will come by and visit you, Christie? I think it would be interesting to hear their excuses for the paranoid behavior.

[Lisa - Darkmstf]

Kathy, for what it's worth I STILL use that interactive excel recipe designer!

[Carrie Ann Cassidy]

Goodness! I've rolled my eyes at some list and forum dictators before, but this one wins the prize. I'm pretty sure I've seen shorter job applications.

Wonder what they're all worked up about. It's a dog discussion list not a top secret mission for a government intelligence agency. I suspect you didn't miss much by not being a part of this social circle. Although it's clear they find themselves to be quite important.

[Nancy]

I don't know how I missed this post.

I had the same experience in early 2011 when one of my dogs was diagnosed with CRF. I really wanted/needed support, I was distraught. Then to get the "form" in response I went through the same process of laughing and then I got absolutely, insanely enraged. I wrote that I would not be answering their questions, I kept the email I sent and their response.

"We do everything we can to filter out less-than-sincere applicants. As you must know, there are people who only join lists to make trouble. Because our group can be particularly sensitive emotionally - many come to us in desperation for their dog - we try hard to engage many filter mechanisms in the application process. With a list population of 3800+, we take our responsibility to protect the membership very seriously.

The personal information requested is only seen by the moderator group for verification purposes. I suggest you complete all the questions in the application and submit it. If you choose not to, we understand. "

When I again replied that I didn't feel that is was necessary they know where I work, what my job title was, etc. I was told that if someone really wanted to check me out they could just look me up in the phonebook or Google. Uhm, so that means I should just HAND the information over voluntarily?

I was heartbroken and though I loved my dog and I was desperate for support, I chose to not fill out their ridiculous questionnaire. I felt violated just receiving it and again when I was told that I was being paranoid.

RIP Cheyenne.

[sharon]

they just did that to me. i filled out all the info except the phone number and they refused my membership 'application' the mod emailed me the same thing so i caved and gave her my husbands cell phone number and now just crickets. wtf is up with that list?!

i just want to help my dog who has stones and is in pain. my vet sucks and i wanted advice on making her a diet for bladder stones. this stupid mod actually had me in tears ... she sucks ... i hate mean people.

you'd think the list was a masonic cult. it's pretty sad that they have to be such a$$holes.

[Shaun]

I recently went to sign up, After reading this I doubt I will. I signed up for K9utrition. My 6 year old Catahoula just got diagnosed with PLN/GN due to Lyme. Were switching her to a homemade diet. Just trying to find out information on other peoples luck with certain foods. Where can I find this spreadsheet someone talked about? The Vet only gave her a month. But shes so full of energy and she seams so healthy. I want to get her diet dialed in, and make sure shes getting enough. Her BUN levels were at 53H. Not sure if we can get those down with diet.

[Sasha]

Just had a serious problem at k9kidneys mailing kist. You aren't allowed to criticize vets.

These places are run like cults, and not for the benefit of the dogs. Just stay away and read Pubmed. In the time you takes learning to pander to these control freaks, you can actually get a grip on the latest science yourself.

[Chrissy]

I had exactly the same experience trying to sign up a year or so ago. How ridiculous for a yahoo group of all things to demand a paid email address! I replied that I don't have a paid email address and they could stick their attitude where the sun don't shine.
I suppose I should have just sucked it up for my dog's sake but the whole thing left a nasty taste in the mouth.

[CapeCyn]

Hi. A friend was on this group and recommended we join. Our dog is in kidney failure. I actually did fill out the app and sumbit, including explicit details of his ilness, care and diet, and haven't heard back. I sent an email to ask how long it generally takes to get approved, and haven't heard back on even that. Is this normal?

[Lexy]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR INFO ON ;
K9KIDNEY DIET GROUP!!!
I thought their creepy bizarre list to join was VERY STRANGE and a few red flags came up but I wanted the best for my dog so I spent ALL THE TIME to fill out this EXTREMELY LENGTHY FORM accompanied by by more rules than an FBI background check ....
When I replied to a women in need of info I received the rudest email VERY VERY CULT LIKE !!! I can't stress that ENOUGH VERY CULT LIKE !!!
The group appears to be SICKLY CONTROLLED BY ONE MAYBE TWO WOMEN !!! And any ANY info that isn't accepted by HER it's denied !! I simply shared a holistic recipe I was given to a women begging pleading for HELP for her dog & WOW they wouldn't put their name only :
'K9KDiet Moderator Team' and their REPLY CONTRADICTED every SINGLE WORD THEY SAID !! It made no SENSE!
It was NOTHING BUT CONTROLING & CULT LIKE !!
Sadly ALL THIS 'MONERATOR' did was BLOCK USEFUL INFORMATION TO A WOMEN PLEADING FOR ANY HELP WITH HER DOG !!
Why IN THE WORLD WOULD THIS GROUP DENY DENY A SUGGESTTO A WOMAN IN DESPERATE NEED OF ANY HELP FOR HER PRECIOUS DOG STRUGGLING TO STAY ALIVE ?????
My EMAIL had NO brand info i.e. Use only Butterball turkey I ABSOLUTELY was not getting any kick back financially from the RICE growers by suggestion WHITE RICE etc etc the MODERATOR said in 'their experience ' these nutrition diet were too expensive for 'their members ' ZOK AM I CRAZY BUT SHOULDNT THAT BE UP TO THE MEMBERS TO DECIDE ???
For ME I've even borrowed money from a friend to to my dog an ultra sound I would of been SO ANGRY if SOMEONE DECIDED FOR ME I COULDNT AFFORD AN ULTRASOUND!!! That is MY DECISION NOT SOME CONTROLING DICTATOR OF A SUPPOSEDLY HELP AND SUPPORT GROUP !!!
Someone SOMEHOW NEEDS TO BE ALERTED ABOUT THIS GROUP WHEN POSSIBLE HELPFUL INFORMATION IS BLOCKED & DENIED !!!!!