Liveblogging Marion Nestle and Mal Nesheim in San Francisco

I'm at Omnivore Books in San Francisco, liveblogging Marion Nestle and Mal Nesheim's reading of their new book, "Feed Your Pet Right."



Reminder about liveblogging: This is really live, so there will be typos. Only things in quotation marks are direct quotes; everything else is a paraphrase or close approximation. I'll come back later and add links.



I've also created a Twitter hashtag for the event, #feedyourpet. You can watch that for my Tweets and probably other people's, too.



This is being done in real-time, so hit refresh to see the newest material. When I'm done I'll go back and tuck this all behind a jump, so as not to mess up the blog.



Here we go!







Marion starts out talking about her book on what humans eat, "What to Eat," and how it wasn't really about what to eat, but how to think about what to eat. She said she did a lot her research in supermarkets, going aisle by aisle, trying to answer any question she could think of about the products.



As she'd walk through the store she'd see the pet food aisle, 120 feet long, dog food on one side, cat food on the other, shelves 6-7 feet high. Astonishing amount of real estate in the stores.



Foods are not in markets by accident -- manufacturers pay to be in stores. And she was astounded at how much money must be represented by that amount of real estate.



Said she'd pick up bags and cans and pouches and couldn't understand the labels. What are these ingredients? What is the guaranteed analysis?



Her partner Mal Nesheim had taught animal nutrition at Cornell and he understood them and explained them, and she decided to do a chapter on pet food in "What to Eat." But the book was already extremely long so that didn't happen.



She said she asked Mal to write a book on pet food with her, and they figured out it wouldn't destroy their relationship. (Laughter.)



Signed book deal in Feb of 2007 -- then came the pet food recall.



That shocked them. They had no idea one company in Canada was making 70+ brands of pet food. Said the pet food recall opened up lines of research they would never have thought about without the recall.



It's very hard to study food in an academic way -- even human food. NYU, where she teaches, is one of the few places. But writing about pet food takes even more explaining, but the pet food recall somewhat changed that. "If pet food was suffering from a gap in our food safety system like this, then the food safety system in our country was in real trouble.... and this was even before the spinach recalls."



Said it turned out pet food manufacturers didn't even know what was in their products. And pet food, human food and animal feed are tightly linked, as pet and animal foods "soak up" the leftovers of human food production.



They ended up writing about things that interested them. A real curiosity about pet food.



Their first question was, "Is commercial pet food any good and can it be trusted?" Which is basically what the book is about. What do the labels mean, how do you decode them? What do premium, natural, organic mean for pet food? What about health claims? How do you tell how much your pet should be eating? Vegetarian, vegan, grains, raw, cooked? Should I believe my vet's advice about what foods to buy?



Set out to answer those questions.



Using Google Books and libraries, looked at what pets ate before commercial pet food.



Reading from that section:



"Mice are an excellent source of nutrition for cats." Dogs did well on varied diets of leftovers of human food. Plus, dog owners and breeders understood that their animals' diets needed to follow basic principles.



1858 guide to dog care pointed out that while wolves ate meat, and natural food of the dog is flesh, but said most dogs should eat oatmeal with offal, leftovers, and milk. Also, liver and horsemeat.



1850 book recommended veggies like carrots and cabbage. Kennels fed a lot of oatmeal and horsemeat.



In 1900 a how-to book about dog health recommended sheep heads, meat and "coarse scotch oatmeal." Also bones, which are "of great value to him." "One should always be allowed at least once or twice a week."



Great relationship with a butcher assumed.



She reads recipe for puppy diet with sheep's head. She said it would be very nutritious but "seems rather inconvenient for the modern kitchen."



Pet food industry as we now know it began early 20th century.



Mal takes over reading. "Marion didn't exactly have to twist my arm to write this book." PhD in animal nutrition at Cornell. Taught courses in nutrition to veterinary students. Is not a veterinarian.



Then he got into human nutrition which is how he got to know Marion. "But that's another story altogether." (laughter)



Went to many meetings, including Global Pet Expo in San Diego, 11 football fields of pet products. And went to Pet Food Forum. Tried to visit as many pet food manufacturers as possible.



Hills allowed him to go to Topeka plant and research facilities. They were very helpful.



Purina "wouldn't let us near the place." "We did go to an open cat nutrition meeting they had that honored Quinton Rogers, who I've known for many years."



Proctor and Gamble also "wouldn't let us near the place."  A testing facility near Ithaca wouldn't let them in, either.



Were able to go to Mars' Waltham facilities in England. Marvelous, modern, pets well taken care of, people whose job is just to play with the pets.



Began to write and talked about, as Marion said, all these issues about what they need, what's in the food. And about veterinarians, their relationship to the pet food industry, and how pet food companies try to influence veterinarians, and how there is little research and much of it is not made public.



He's reading "Conclusion" chapter:



Had not known pets formed corner of US economy that accounted for 17-18 billion dollars. Until melamine recalls, had not realized how tightly pet food and people food industries were linked. Believe that, coupled with how people treasure our pets, make this an area deserving of research.



"No one method is best for feeding dogs and cats."  Like people, they can flourish on a wide variety of diets. "It's extremely difficult to induce a nutritional deficiency in an animal or person eating a sufficient variety of foods."



"The way you feed your pets should match the kind of dietary preferences and beliefs you have. If this surprises you, it's because no one would ever know it from surveying books on this subject." Most believe only in commercial pet food or only raw or only home cooked or only some alternative. People don't eat that way and pets don't need to, either. "Any of these methods, singly or together, are good ways to feed pets."



Someone asked how to deal with feeding variety causing diarrhea or throwing up.



(Note from Christie: I have something to say about that, LOL.)



Mal said: Find what works for your pet. Talked about how how different foods affect stool.



Question about pet food recall. What regulatory changes occurred, and is there consumer group overseeing the pet food industry?



Marion said, "Significant reform is an oxymoron." There were some reforms right after, "but there has been backsliding." FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine oversees pet food, a little known and under-funded branch of FDA. They mean well but their hands are tied. FDA has no budget. Pass the Food Act!



Congress passed a law but it was all voluntary. (Rolled her eyes.)



"Industry is fond of saying pet food is better regulated than human food, but we don't believe it. Or as we say, we have our doubts."



Thinks animal, human and pet food should be regulated together. And FDA is looking at that, also changing labels on pet foods.



Question about cancer in pets.



Marion said they wanted to know if pet health is better now than in past, or pets being fed all different kinds of diets... "There is no comparative data at all. These studies simply do not exist."



They can't find data on longevity, either.



Question: Where did the grain-free "fad" come from?



Mal: Melamine was in wheat gluten, so that's part of it. Corn has gotten a bad name -- Michael Pollan gave corn a bad name. (Laughter.)



Look at the foods that are "grain-free," they have other starches. There is no evidence that these forms of starches are any better or even different than starches from grains.



Question about "prescription diets." And if you ask the vet for a home cooked diet that can do the same thing, they say no. Can you talk about that?



Marion: Talked about how similar the ingredient lists of all these foods really are, and then said that they read "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition," which goes on and on and on about how you must never feed a homemade diet and it's so hard no one could do it, and then they give these recipes that are so simple anyone could do it.



"They either think dog and cat owners are stupid, or that no one knows how to cook. But it couldn't be easier."



Mal said that Mark Morris of Hills did do good research on kidney diets, and "there is some research that dogs that are fed these diets may live a little longer." (Dogs with kidney disease.) One problem, he says, is that dogs don't like it and won't eat it.



But he says there is not necessarily research behind all the prescription foods. "You go to a doctor and they give you a sugar pill, and you go to a veterinarian and they give you a prescription diet."



Audience member asked, "Are you having problems with raw food people who are like scientologists?"



Marion laughed and said, "I don't want to go there." Talked about how a lot of raw food people are not happy with them, even though they say it's fine to feed raw. Says that she was honestly surprised that raw diet people think they are against them, and says they are not.



Question: Are we still using ingredients from China?



Marion: Vitamin mixes.



Mal: Some pet food are imported from China. And lots and lots of treats.



Marion: "Pet Food Politics" came out in spring of 2008, and six months later, melamine turned up in infant formula. "So beyond the pale." And they're still doing it. Subtitle of book was "Chihuahua in the Coal Mine," so looks like I was right.



Marion: "The nutrients in minimally processed foods are always best. With pet foods, that means you're cooking -- or NOT cooking -- for your pet." Or buying some of the minimally processed raw or cooked foods that are a specialty market.



Mal: A lot of people just want to tear open a bag of kibble and pour it in a bowl, but others have different things that are important to them.



Audience member: Not all raw feeders have a problem with you. They were talking about this event on the SF Raw list today and saying really nice things.



Marion: Tell them thank you!



Audience member: Advice on buying commercial foods:



Mal: We prefer foods that have been fed in feeding trials, not just meeting AAFCO nutrient profiles. "The melamine problem was discovered because a manufacturer fed it to an animal." "Feeding trials are not perfect but they're better."



After a discussion of the ethics of feeding trials, which is handled extensively in the book, it was a wrap.

Comments

[Mary Haight]

Thanks for covering this event - got the book, but great to hear author's overview and audience questions. While downer cows and research animals were not discussed, weird that there is no data on longevity or comparative pet health over time given changing diets.

[YesBiscuit!]

Thank you so much for liveblogging this Christie!

My favorite: "It’s extremely difficult to induce a nutritional deficiency in an animal or person eating a sufficient variety of foods."

That is, as many here know, in stark contrast to the dire warnings from the FDA and pet food corporations that only men in lab coats could formulate a diet that would keep a pet alive.

[H. Houlahan]

they read “Small Animal Clinical Nutrition,” which goes on and on and on about how you must never feed a homemade diet and it’s so hard no one could do it, and then they give these recipes that are so simple anyone could do it.



Yeah! What she said!



I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice this. Was feeling a little reality disconnect there for a while.

[Mary Mary]

Wow! You got to hear Marion Nestle! I received "What to Eat" as a gift a few weeks ago and went straight to, and am stalled on, the fish chapter.



I just LOVE the book.



As for pet food, don't start me on the junk for rabbits. I stand at the pet store looking at 25 different options for treats and I would fee NONE of them to a rabbit.



Rabbits are vegans. Yet the first two ingredients on yogurt drops are cow milk + cane sugar. When I tell people in my rabbit classes to never feed yogurt drops, they all get a stricken look.



Cilantro, people! Now there is a treat food.



Lemon balm!



Basil!



"Rabbits can eat basil?" they ask, eyes wide.



Sigh.



No, only if it's in a plastic package and has a bunch of chemicals added.

[Gina Spadafori]

One of my rabbits (the late and much missed Turbo) would attack a wolf for broccoli florets.

[H. Houlahan]

"Rabbits can eat basil?"



I guess none of them are gardeners.



Um, yeah, they sure can.

[Mary Mary]

I dump my rabbits' litterboxes around the perimater of my garden ... this is not scientifcally proven, but I believe it keeps the wild rabbits from eating my stuff.



The first year I actually TOLD a cottontail, who was watching me put the plants in, that I would not spray my property with chemicals and he was welcome to it all EXCEPT for my garden. And there was not one bite taken from my garden all summer, and I use no fencing.



Huh!

[H. Houlahan]

Your bunny-whispering ways are much more gentle than our border patrol.



But then, we have a contract with the foxes; we bring them the heads and offal from butchering (the dogs get the feet and giblets) and leave it on the Official Fox Offering Stump at the far end of the south pasture, and they don't kill our poultry.



Also, we don't let anyone trap on our land, and only deer hunting allowed, though I make an exception for falconry.