My Photo

Keep Up

Flickr


  • www.flickr.com
    christiekeith's items Go to christiekeith's photostream

« The impact of a fresh coat of paint on grief | Main | Labradoodles and other oodles: The problem isn ' t ' impurity ' »

26 April 2010

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Glenye Oakford

I just think it's going to be difficult for a single individual who is working for HSUS to remain with the organization and also support hunting. Do you know of any individual there who does? I think hunters' time is probably better spent on separate efforts to stop puppy mills and promoting ethical hunting, for example, than in hoping to change a single mind in an organization that is avowedly anti-hunting. Every foxhunter I know is happy to talk to anyone who wants to learn more about hounds, so it's not like they'd refuse to talk to an HSUS employee, but I don't think anyone is under any real expectation that converting a single individual there is either a likely outcome or an effective way to make a dent on the HSUS groups' anti-hunting stance.



It's hard not to see HSUS as monolithic when you consider their budget, the breadth of their communications and legislative initiatives, and statements like "Hound hunting, besides being cruel to dogs and wildlife, is a serious annoyance to many property owners," which is in one of their many pieces against hunting with hounds (that one from 2009). Search their website for "hunting with hounds," and their position is clear. It's hard to imagine that even if the Masters of Fox Hounds Association, for example, were to talk to Stephanie Shain in hopes of a fruitful dialogue, that this would prompt any real change in HSUS's long and ongoing anti-hunting agenda.

Mary Mary

So if you are indeed a “reputable ethical breeder”.. why aren’t you having more pups and not less. Why aren’t you flooding the market with well bred ,well raised puppies?



Comment by bestuvall — April 27, 2010 @ 1:58 pm





Maybe it's because part of being ethical is being responsible to and for each puppy for his/her entire lifetime?



When I started fostering seven years ago, very low number per year, I told each adopter that I would take the animal back WHENEVER it was needed.



Well, after what I went through over the past year -- vet bills, daily care, extreme stress -- when my very first foster animal from six years ago came back to me with an equally sickly partner ... let's just say I have changed my "return policy."



If I bred dogs, I would not create more puppies than I could manage over their lifespans.

Susi

I frankly don't believe that HSUS wants to come to a table with anyone. I think that this is obvious by what is happening in Ohio in reference to their farm bill. Ohio appointed a competent group of people with experience and knowledge of what is right for agriculture IN THAT STATE but it wasn't good enough for HSUS so now they are petiticning for another law.



In Colorado ( I think, could be wrong on the State ), reporters with ag interest were kept out of a HSUS meeting on the same subject.



If HSUS is willing to talk to dog people and dog breeders now, it's only because they are seeing their donations go down and we are finally making a dent in the fact that HSUS isn't what it implies that it is. It implies that it is the umbrella organization for ALL humane societies by it's ads. Help us fight puppy mills they implore. Then they go and utilize most of the donations toward their own salaries, their pension plans, stock in food companies and lately attempts at changing America's appetite for meat and eggs.



If HSUS wants to talk, they got a lot of explaining to do first.

bestuvall

Mary Mary I would be interested to know what you changed?.. good honest post.. thanks. It is stressful to raise puppies.. and breed dogs.. it takes courage, knowledge, a sense of "art" and lots of money to breed and raise a litter of healthy pups....and then do it again.. and again.. and again..if I may make a recommendation for a great puppy whelping and raising book.. The Whelping and Rearing of Puppies by Muriel Lee..http://www.workingdogs.com/store/item-0793804973.htm

It should be on every persons bookshelf.. if you ever have puppies at your home.. lots of practical info.. and some savvy advice from breeders.. .. oh and it has plastic pages.. and is spiral bound.. handy for lot of reasons we won't go into here.. LOL

Christie Keith

Susi wrote:

"I frankly don’t believe that HSUS wants to come to a table with anyone."

"HSUS" can't want anything. It's not a human being. Only individuals have desires.

And:

"I think that this is obvious by what is happening in Ohio in reference to their farm bill. Ohio appointed a competent group of people with experience and knowledge of what is right for agriculture IN THAT STATE but it wasn’t good enough for HSUS so now they are petiticning for another law."

It wasn't good enough for me, either. I eat meat and believe in the sustainable and humane raising of livestock for food, and I find the practices of most large-scale ag operations completely unacceptable from a number of standpoints.

Mary Mary

Mary Mary I would be interested to know what you changed?



Comment by bestuvall — April 27, 2010 @ 4:02 pm



I foster domestic rabbits (and occasionally dogs) for local shelters. I've had about 20-25 through my house, and always told the adopters I would take them back if needed.



Well, I am not promising that anymore. I do not have the capacity, as I learned the past year. The next time I foster, any returns will go to the shelter. I am very active at the shelter so I am usually involved in the care the rabbits get there anyway. But bring them back to my home? No.



I would love to see puppy mills shut down. I just cannot envision the "business model" that would replace them. I also have no sense of the numbers ... ex: how many Maltese puppies are born each year? How many in-the-home breeders would need to be recruited to fulfill the demand if the Maltese puppy mills shut down?

Susi

It wasn’t good enough for me, either. I eat meat and believe in the sustainable and humane raising of livestock for food, and I find the practices of most large-scale ag operations completely unacceptable from a number of standpoints.

------------

Do you really know anything about Ohio's agricultual economics and agriculture business'?

Enough to decide what it is that they should or should not be doing?

Have you ever stepped foot on a farm period, Christie?



Has HSUS told you about the horse rescue they participated in? The one in Arkansas ... where they *rescued* twenty plus horses from a woman with over fifty years experience and PLACED them on an unfit pasture. Then left without making sure that anyone was FEEDING or WATERING the horses ????



http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Jolley--They-Shoot-Horse--Owners---Don-t-They/2010-04-05/Article.aspx?oid=1034823&fid=CN-LATEST_NEWS_



Yea, it's individuals alright ... individual's working in HSUS name.



The fact remains that *IF* HSUS or &the individual's* at HSUS want to talk to *ANYONE* they have a lot of explaining to do before I'll or any awful lot of others will listen to them. Like why did they leave those horses, horses that were not pasture savvy out in the dead of winter, with NO shelter, with only stagnant pond water that they didn't know how to break the ice with their hooves ... why did they do that???



I'm supposed to believe that they are really worried about puppy mill dogs when they go and do something stupid and heartless like that????



Yet under Pacelle's reign, they are a farce ... they are nothing more than a lobbying business, nothing humane about them.

H. Houlahan

Don't you dare tell me that it's my god-damned patriotic duty to breed more dogs in order to "flood the market" and "meet demand."



I've spent the last year and a half of my life cleaning up the mess from a "breeder" who did a dandy job of flooding the market. Too bad for the dogs she overshot that "demand" thing a bit.



I'll breed exactly as many litters as I have the time, money, energy, and ability to provide lifetime followup for. I'll breed a bitch when *I* have determined that that bitch is a worthy candidate, and I'll breed her no more often than is good for her health and career advancement.



And I'll encourage thoughtful, kind, committed owners of one or a few dogs to do the same -- to breed a few well-considered litters from good dogs who are also beloved, and spend plenty of time placing the pups in carefully-selected homes.

Christie Keith

So, Susi... new around here, I guess?

Rhonda

Christie - I'm someone who has been in Brittanys for almost 30 years. While I'm not a breeder (that's my daughter), I have done rescue for almost that many years. I'd be happy to enlighten anyone who wants to hear why

I hate HSUS



Among other things, we discussed that almost no one in the dog fancy will speak to her, even though she has repeatedly and publicly

stated that she supports and believes in good dog breeding and breeders, and that good breeders are the first line of defense

against puppy mills.



Good breeders ARE the first line of defense. But have you actually looked at the wording of the HSUS legislation? It would make it

impossible for many good breeders to continue what they do. In some cases - it would make it impossible for rescue to continue.



Do you know how it galls me to be "on the side" of people I'd never get a dog from - people who I've worked many years to educate the public against? I wish they'd share a little of their very deep coffers with

the people out here actually saving animals!



Rhonda Carlson

American Brittany Rescue

www.americanbrittanyrescue.org

1.866.BRIT911

bestuvall

H. Houlahan: I never said it was your duty to do anything.. what I said was.. if you don't want "puppy mills" then hobby breeders should "flood the market" with WELL BRED WELL RAISED puppies because no matter what .. people WILL buy puppies.and it seems the issue is .. where will they come from? that is a fact...so if you don't want "puppy mills' build a better mousetrap and produce more well bred well socialized puppies because nature hates a void.. and when there is a demand for something there is always someone to fill it in a way that may not be acceptable to you. The way to cure that dilemma is to fill the void with what you would want.. not what others provide..Raise the bar as to what is available to the standards YOU feel are acceptable and then maybe you wouldn't have had the problem you are describing with the breeder.

How else will you "stop puppy mills"?

I encourage my puppy people to bred their dogs after they are health tested and evaluated for temperament and soundness. I encourage them to breed their bitches and dogs.. exactly as you said.. my point was made when you said:

"I’ll breed a bitch when *I* have determined that that bitch is a worthy candidate, and I’ll breed her no more often than is good for her health and career advancement."



exactly..when YOU decide.. not when the government or the HSUS decides...that is all anyone can ask.. it is a personal decision.. one that only you can make.

bestuvall

Mary Mary.. thank you for the information.. and I agree with you..

bestuvall

wow Glenye.. i went to your blog.. what FUN.. great videos.. and pictures.. I also read about "Scout" and how you are looking for a home for him.. I noticed you said you would take him but you were "up to your limit".. of four.. i am not sure if that is your personal limit.. or the laws where you live.. but if it is the laws.. then how sad is that.. here is a person who looks like she could take care of many dogs.. but "limit laws" will not allow it.. and Scout continues to look for a forever home.. Please let us know if he found one.. what a lovely dog..

Limit laws KILL dogs..

Cait

I don't think that it's right to say that good breeders should 'flood the market'- and I don't think breeders should be producing more puppies than they themselves would be comfortable bringing home tomorrow. But I *do* think that we should be encouraging responsible, serious pet owners to get educated, get more involved, and consider BECOMING responsible breeders. I *do* think we need more of them- each taking responsibility for the number of puppies they feel they reasonably COULD care for if they were returned- working on concert with mentors and co-breeders and stud owners. This was frequently the case in the past, as I understand it- someone bought a nice puppy bitch, her breeder helped them find a complimentary stud dog at the right time, and they bred her, kept a puppy, and the rest went to family and friends. The lifetime takeback thing might or might not have been there then, but it should be now, right?



A lot of the s/n scare tactics play into this- how your unspayed bitch is of course going to die of pyo, or of mammary tumors, or in labor because of COURSE no one with a vet school diploma could POSSIBLY safely whelp a litter. And that your intact dog is going to be aggressive and a marker and scale 20' fences to get to any intact bitch within the same zip code, making him impossible to live with if he ever 'gets a taste of it'. It scares off a lot of people who do the research and the people who are too dumb to research or care too little for their individual dogs aren't dissuaded.

Susi

So, Susi… new around here, I guess?

-------------

Actually, I caught up with you on the Faye/Fay incident.

Thought that was well handled and I respected that.

Pretty much over all that now.

Lis

So, I guess, then, that your main issue is opposition to HSUS, rather than your main issue being animal welfare.



Or perhaps your main interest is protecting factory farming.



Regardless, the Ohio farm bill was good or bad based on what the farm bill actually did for animal welfare and sustainable agriculture, not based on whether HSUS did something stupid or incompetent or even outright evil somewhere else. In order to defend something, anything, no, it is not sufficient to simply know that HSUS is against it.

Glenye Oakford

Hi, bestuvall--and thanks for your kind comments on the hound blog! Maybe I should point out here that our hunt breeds only a single litter a year and retires every hound we have (including any we get from other packs)! As for our capacity, it's not a legal limit (yet--there's been a push to limit to three dogs, but that hasn't happened so far) but due to the size of our property. We're in a suburb, and we and our vet feel that four smallish dogs would be our limit given the space we've got.



We're pulling hard for a home for Scout, and I sure hope he finds one soon.

Gina Spadafori

For those of you who want to read more of Glenye's wonderful writing, may I recommend her book, "The Home Run Horse: Inside America's Billion-Dollar Racehorse Industry and the High-Stakes Dreams that Fuel It." It's especially on topic during Derby Week!



I am a horse-racing fan, and I couldn't put it down. Great insider info, from a woman who knows racing inside and out.



Here's the link: http://www.amazon.com/Home-Run-Horse-Billion-Dollar-High-Stakes/dp/0972640126/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272462394&sr=1-1



As for the Derby, Glenye and I agree: Go Ice Box!

Susi

My main issue is that my rights are being attacked ... specifically property rights. Since HSUS seems intent to remove animal's designation as property then yes, that's my main focus.



You are the one that brought up that HSUS wants to talk to dog people. I simply replied that from my POV they got some explaining to do first. I listed a couple of examples of that and also someone else has listed Mr Pang's experience with them. He needed help, he called the Humane Society local, who called HSUS, all played nice/nice ... then he's behind bars for cruelty? When he tried to do the right thing and WHILE he was grieving his dead wife??? wow, where's the humanity in that one?







As far as my stance on animal welfare ... hel-low?

Come on out to the farm and you decide for yourself. How dare you make an assumption on the basis of two blog posts and again you prove another point. If someone disagrees with HSUS in any form, then automatically they are against animal welfare. rofl ...



The real issue tho is that HSUS as a corporate lobbying machine made of individuals with PETA, ALF and who knows what else poltical leanings is NOT for welfare either,

They are firmly standing up and trying to enforce for animal rights.





Tell your buddies to boot Pacelle to the street. Then maybe we can talk about welfare issues.

Lis

Susi, you're not even reading carefully enough to notice that I'm not Christie. Or even Gina.



And if you found this blog through the Faye controversy, then you ought to have noticed that criticizing the HSUS is not out of bounds here. What will tend to get pushback is the assumption that if you want to defend something, all you have to do is point out that HSUS is against it.



I can only base my opinions about you on what you post here, since you have not identified yourself beyond a first name, and you're not the only farmer in Ohio. This makes it rather difficult for anyone to accept your kind invitation and visit your farm.



Factory farming is destructive of animal welfare, destructive of the environment, and destructive of the overall safety of our food supply. My father's family farmed; cousins farmed until quite recently. What they did had nothing to do with corporate factory farms. Nor would laws banning high density feeding operations as practiced on factory farms have had much impact on them--other than to lessen a bit the degree to which the corporate behemoths could underprice them.



HSUS is a big organization that does and says a lot of things. I'm very unhappy with a lot of those things. But when they come out against puppy mills, and the factory farming of dogs as if they were battery hens (which is also a bad thing), and provide excellent information and advice on how to find a responsible breeder or an adoptable pet--I support that.



Supporting that doesn't mean I automatically support their proposed legislative "fixes" for puppy mills, because so far they seem to at best regard responsible breeders as acceptable collateral damage. But there's at least something to talk about, and the HSUS is composed of human beings, whose opinions can be changed. Change enough of those opinions, and HSUS may change. (Unlike PETA, which was founded by people dedicated to the elimination of domestic animals, and still has one of those co-founders as president.)

Susi

Big surprise !!

I'm not even in Ohio!

Yea, it's a bit hard to keep up with who says what at times.



Where I am is besides the point.



I do think that the board that Ohio picked is good. Sorry that HSUS wasn't invited to it but what really do they know about meat production other than they'd rather folks not partake of it?



psst ... I am in Florida. HSUS DESTROYED what pork industry we had ... not that Florida was ever that big into pig farms but there were a couple. Where was HSUS when the farms slaughted *HUNDREDS* of hogs instead of conforming to HSUS standards as dictated by their new legislated Florida law? Did they offer to take in and rescue any piggies?

waiting, waiting waiting for ... ok time's up.

Didn't think so.



Factory farming has NO meaning. It's a term from the mid 1800's and the industrial/mechanical revolution hit the farm.



If there is a machine IN place to help the farmer do what he needed to do ... he was at that point a factory farm. So if your family farm Liz has a tractor or even a automatic watering system surprise or maybe an electric gate opening system -- YOUR family farm is A FACTORY FARM!

taa-daa!



(I'll say it for you now because I've had this argument by several pro HSUS clones)

*I know that*



I'm not even going to respond to the ecological affects from farms because most of it has been proven NOT true. Green space is green space and most farms are considered as green space.



HSUS is hardly the first person to put out information on responsible breeding/breeders.

AKC has had promotional/educational tools to that affect for twenty plus years along with several dog clubs, rescue organizations.



Interesting that Fay's rescuer has popped back up on another blog ... not 100 percent sure but it seems she still hasn't gotten that promised $5000 from HSUS. I think that's what she's saying without saying it directly.

So anywho, gotta go run the farm Liz, or Gina or whoever, been fun, chat later

Gina Spadafori

"Susi" ... that's BS. What's meant by a "factory farm" -- and I don't much like the term myself -- is more accurately what is known as a Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation, or CAFO.



The problems with CAFOs, aside from the debate over whether or not animals "like" them, is this:



-- They present grave risks to our health and national security. Health is well-documented: CAFO's indiscriminate use of antibiotics had led to the growth of drug-resistant bacteria, and these crowded operations are also suspected in viral mutations. If these "super-bugs" don't scare the living hell out of you, you've don't know enough about them to form an opinion. As for national security -- think of the contaminated meat "accidentally" coming out of the corporate ag machine. Then think about how easy to contaminate on purpose.



-- They are high users of fossil fuels and other resources. There's a limited amount of the stuff -- how limited is debatable, of course, but CAFOs take a low-energy-use industry and spin it 180. It takes a lot of resources at all stages of industrial farming.



-- They are massive polluters of groundwater, streams and rivers. CAFOs take something that has traditionally been of value -- animal manure -- and turn it into toxic waste.



As for whether people who aren't farmers should be "allowed" to have a say in how farming is done ... well, "Susi" the alleged farmer who is so concerned about your property rights, let me say that once the ag industry gets off the teat of my tax dollars we can have a discussion of your "rights."



In the meantime, you are risking MY health with MY money. So hell yeah, I have a say.



But since I don't have much of a say with the money spent in DC and the statehouses by the lobbyists of corporate ag, I'm supporting real family farmers with my hard-earned money. And guess what? My overall food budget is less because I've changed how I eat (almost all meals are made at home) and how I buy (direct from farmers, CSAs, farmers markets and co-op buys). Yes, it's possible! And also healthier: I've lost weight and all my vitals are GREAT! (Another plus: The food tastes better. Chicken tastes like ... chicken, not a rubbery meat-like substance with saltwater and flavorings added.)



Am I a vegan? Puh-lease. Nothing I love so much as a nice grilled rib-eye. And as for the carnivores here, feline and canine, I have TWO freezers for all the wonderful meat they eat, from regional family farms that have respect for their land and the healthy animals they raise for food.



In other words, I support farmers, real farmers, not multi-national ag corporations.



None of which, of course, has anything to do with the point of Christie's post, which is this: Why are good, ethical, caring breeders supporting puppy mills?



And mostly, all we've read in the comments is that they are because the HSUS is "worse" and "dangerous."



What the HSUS really is: A convenient "enemy" for the forces of big money who are playing you like a cheap violin to keep business as usual on the corporate farms and in the puppy-mills.



When then HSUS deserves to be slammed, we slam them, but good. They are really a fund-raising machine with an advocacy arm, and frankly, that needs to be changed before *I* would ever give them a dime. But they're on the side of the angels with regards to puppy-mills, even though they haven't offered anything that respects (and encourages) reputable, ethical breeders and protects heritage breeds and work, like those of the hunting kennel Glenye writes about so artfully.



We will fight them on bad legislation, and we have done so. But we will not defend puppy-millers in doing so. Not. Gonna. Happen. I will also fight for hunters, hunting and gun rights, for reasons that would require another few hundred words so I'll leave it there for now.



As for you bemoaning the loss of CAFOs for hogs in Florida, you might want to rather consider that you dodged a bullet. Give a read to the Raleigh News and Observer's 1995 Pulitzer Prize winning series on what Pork CAFOs did to North Carolina. You can find "Boss Hog" in its entirety, here.

H. Houlahan

Uh, yeah, farmer here. One who uses a real name, verifiable, small detail, I know.



The Farm Bureau, Cargill, the USDA, Frank Perdue, et. al. do not speak for me or my land and livestock. The AKC, NAIA, USDA, UKC, and Pennsylvania Professional (sic) Dog Breeders(sic) Association do not speak for me or my dogs.



And neither may "Susi."



Again, PeTA et. al. don't get to define who I am or what my interests and values are. Why should those other creeps?



Is there a special label for the logical fallacy that goes "Enemy-of-your-way-of-life A considers you to be exactly the same as Enemy-of-your-way-of-life B, therefore you must join with B and accept that identity?"

Glenye Oakford

Thanks for the plug, Gina! Not surprisingly, we in Kentucky are overtaken by Derby fever at the moment. I'm getting ready to go talk to Ice Box's breeder right now, in fact ...

Mary

Hi Brent....I was at the Kansas City Pet Expo last weekend, with GWP Rescue, inc and Dock Dogs. I love your blogs....I also had all of the puppy miller babes photos in Plexiglas frames on my table when Gary Jones came to inspect the files and HC's that we had on all of our dogs.



We filed a formal complaint with the Dept of AG on this byb/miller in Branson, as we took out 33 puppies and one pregnant Mama last summer, and again took more puppies in Jan.

Is there anything else we can do. Gary said the monster was within compliance...but we have files 3" tall with proof of Parvo on the property (as we treated 4 babies for parvo the days after the raid), all the babies had worms that were so heavy, they were passed by the Mom's to them in the womb ...the mother we got was high hw positive so we took the babies from her at 4 weeks per vet's advice.



The new legislation as I read it, says there is a safety net somewhat "except for dogs used for hunting" I have been trying to get clarification. This man's dogs and puppies were taken to bring him into compliance, 3 intact females and one intact male with city ordinances. Is this legislation the product of the HSUS and if so...what can you share about it? My email is GWPRescue@yahoo.com. I am on the MO border in Kansas City, licensed in KS and MO as an animal care facility...

thanks!

Lis

Gee, where to start?



Okay, so you're in Florida, not Ohio, and bitterly resent the lost "opportunity" of hog CAFOs in Florida.



You believe CAFOs don't have any negative ecological effects. Which means you haven't taken any serious look at the matter--or else it's in your financial interest to deny it.



The livestock on my family's farm didn't live their entire lives confined because it was more efficient. Not pigs, not cows, not chickens. My sister's chickens still don't live confined to little cages, relegated to life as battery hens.



I'm kinda skeptical myself whether HSUS would be a positive addition to Ohio's board; that doesn't mean the current board is perfect or that continuation of the status quo is a good thing.



HSUS is hardly the first person to put out information on responsible breeding/breeders.



A) HSUS is not a "person" except in a technical legal sense. B) No, they're not the first, and won't be the last. This doesn't change the fact that the more voices and the more resources spreading this information around and making it visible, the better.



AKC has had promotional/educational tools to that affect for twenty plus years along with several dog clubs, rescue organizations.



Yup, and every one of those resources is a contribution to the good. It is much to be encouraged. No one distributing good information on the subject of how to find a responsibly bred puppy or how to find the right adoptable pet should be dissed or discouraged from doing it. IT ALL HELPS. Even when you disagree with the organization doing it on most other things.



Meanwhile, you are aware, aren't you, that AKC has made no real effort to prevent puppy millers from being able to advertise and market "AKC registered purebred puppies" and in fact has made some very determined efforts to get in bed with the puppy millers for the greater profit of the AKC, and to the extent that they have been prevented from doing so, it has been ONLY due to the determined opposition of the national breed clubs.



AKC isn't pure and saintly, either; they're still a great information resource. Although in many cases you're best off using them mainly to locate the national breed club, to get really good information.



It's not all or nothing. I don't have to throw out HSUS's excellent information on avoiding puppy mills and finding responsible breeders to oppose bad legislation they support, whether it's poorly thought out, actively malicious, or just badly written. And I don't have to embrace their legislative activities to point to HSUS as an excellent source of information on how to find a responsibly bred pup.



Interesting that Fay’s rescuer has popped back up on another blog



Interesting that you're making the same mistake HSUS made, when they were exploiting Faye for fundraising purposes with no intention of contributing to her care.



… not 100 percent sure but it seems she still hasn’t gotten that promised $5000 from HSUS. I think that’s what she’s saying without saying it directly.



Careful readers will have noticed that HSUS was strongly and vigorously condemned here for its behavior WRT Faye, and that no one here, certainly not our hosts, treat HSUS as above criticism. Their practice of running fundraising ads that give potential donors the impression the money will be used to help animals is a fairly common theme in that criticism.

mary frances

The above comment #76 - Lis said "Their practice of running fundraising ads that give potential donors the impression the money will be used to help animals is a fairly common theme in that criticism." - it's fraud - people are really fed up with frauds -



Comment #10 Tom Blankenship said he learned "you cannot legislate morality"



Add to that one piece of advice - Get any transaction or contract in writing...signed.



I once trusted someone affiliated with HSUS and if I had followed my own advice...well I'll just say it would have been better for the animals and humans.



As for HSUS, PETA and ASPCA - their motives? Money seems to have corrupted...and when Winograd did his post on Ingrid Newkirk's mental state...it was scary (and wasn't he brave for writing it)...Nathan Winograd ended the piece saying we may never know what triggers such behavior. (paraphrase) Same with Wayne Pacelle and Ed Sayers...strange behavior..the result is animals suffer and die - it's no picnic for people either.

bestuvall

ok. perhaps "flood the market' is not the term you want to hear.. how about REPLACE the current market with healthy hobby raised puppies.. to do that we will have to raise more pups.. not less as the HSUS wants to see.. I am not suggesting that only a few people do this.I am suggesting that a lot of people do this... I am suggesting that not every puppy needs to be castrated at 4 months old.. that not every puppy needs to be sold on a "limited" registration.. and that yes MENTORS are needed.. not laws to restrict the breeding of healthy dogs.. the "demand " is there..people will get puppies.. why shouldn't the "reputable" breeder reap the profits.. not only monetary ( that evil word.. money) but the emotional profit of knowing there are healthy happy puppies in the world that have come from good breeders.

Susi

In other words, I support farmers, real farmers, not multi-national ag corporations.

--------------

One of the interesting things is that any farm can incorporate and many do for the various protections that being incorporated can provide them. Smaller family farms are often corporations just as many CAFO's are family owned.



If factory farm is an incorrect term known by so many folks on this list then why continue to use it? The fact of the matter is that when one is speaking of a CAFO, it is an end step for beef on the way to the market. They are rarely in the facility for more than two months. This is not where they are born, grow and reproduce. This is where they go to put a finish on them prior to a trip to the butcher. If you sell any of your beef calves thru an auction market, it's likely they are going to a CAFO at some point.



On top of a gentleman farmer, I'm also a nurse. I've been dealing with superbugs for years in the medical industry. I've heard it all about the origin of MRSA et al. From nuclear bomb testing in Australia to Xray's to indiscriminate physician use to incorrect patient use of antibiotics and now to cattle and hog lots. So what came first, the CAFO or the bug in the environment? I really do not think that anyone has an answer to that.



There are NO CAFO's in my area yet MRSA and a super Pseudomonas has been a problem here for a couple of decades now, think we got our first case in late 80s or early 90s... don't think we've had any nuclear bomb testing around here but we do have a lot of sick people in the wintertime. I don't know what the answer is to that but I suspect that the answer is somewhere in between it all and a reaction to it all. Bugs adapt. Even those little mono-cellular ones. That is what they do to survive. When you use ATBs indiscriminately, you are only causing the bugs to get stronger. Doesn't matter if it's your neighbor who got some for a cold and only took half his prescription or the farmer. I think that if farms are following the guidlines set out by the USDA and/or even their own vets and use them correctly, they are no more and no less guilty than your neighbor.





I don't mean to speak for ANYONE. I simply want to educate those who want to be educated.

I simply do not believe that big automatically equals bad, inhumane treatment nor environmentally unsafe. Here is a video of a huge dairy in Indiana which shows that big can also mean environmentally responsible and humane.

They milk 30K cows a day.



http://www.fofarms.com/pblog/index.php?m=09&y=09&entry=entry090902-062122



enjoy

Lis

bestuvall--I don't think anyone here regularly thinks speutering at four months is a good idea.



Lots of regulars here are in favor of increasing the numbers of responsible breeders. But that is by definition a process that does not happen overnight.



And "flood the market" isn't a clever new phrase you invented yesterday. It has a meaning, and that meaning is not consistent with responsible breeding. Not even if we get more people interested in responsible breeding, and get current responsible breeders to open their minds to the idea that "just one litter"--from healthy, stable, but not necessarily show-champion dogs--can be done responsibly with the willing mentoring of the responsible breeder(s) of those dogs.



We need to increase the numbers of responsible breeders. We need to lose the closed studbook and be more willing to recognize responsible owners who are able and willing to manage intact animals safely and effectively.



But those things take patience, education, persistence. It cannot happen overnight, because the most responsible person in the world still needs to learn what they need to know in order to breed responsibly.

Gina Spadafori

I am not suggesting that only a few people do this.I am suggesting that a lot of people do this… I am suggesting that not every puppy needs to be castrated at 4 months old.. that not every puppy needs to be sold on a “limited” registration.. and that yes MENTORS are needed.. not laws to restrict the breeding of healthy dogs.. the “demand ” is there..people will get puppies.. why shouldn’t the “reputable” breeder reap the profits.. not only monetary ( that evil word.. money) but the emotional profit of knowing there are healthy happy puppies in the world that have come from good breeders.



Comment by bestuvall — April 28, 2010



I know you are not new here. And as such, you should know we've discussed exactly this. MORE good breeders, not less breeding. Family pets from family homes.



But that does require not IDing with puppy-milling scum. Which too many good breeders do, out of fear of "ARs" and peer pressure from other breeders.

bestuvall

i was musing on the words of Gina and others who "buy their meat locally from Fred the friendly farmer".. how much do you pay? when I see 'specialty meat' it is always priced much higher that the Safeway meat.. so.. if everyone should buy locally .. can the family who lives in the "tenderloin" actually afford one.. or will their protein have to come from a less expensive source like Wal mart chicken at .59 per pound...can you expect a child who is living in poverty to afford a pork chop from a Duroc? Or the parent who is scraping by to shell out for "cage free". . I think sometimes our middle class and higher morality gets in the way of acutely LOOKING at people.. and assessing their needs..above the needs of animals.. many many many children go to bed hungry every night.. they do not have the opportunity to "pick and choose" where their food comes from.. in fact.. they have no choice at all.. and are lucky just to get food..

Susi

I did look at the article Gina. The one called Boss Hog. I remember a bigger problem with a hog farm and run-off into a river in NC after a hurricane. That was caused by flooding from the hurricane and guidelines were set in place to prevent it from happening again. Mother nature is not always your friend when you are a farmer ... big or small.



The main complaint voiced by neighbor's of hog operations in the article ... the odor.



Well, pigs do stink at times. Even if you're keeping them clean and only have one or two, they stink. If you say your pigs don't stink, chances are they do at times but you've probably gotten used to it.



It's always amazed me that folks want to live *in the country* and then complain about it.

When we were a grove, people who moved next to us, complained about the dust set off by the tractor when we cut weeds between the rows. They complained about the scent from the orange blossoms bothering their allergies. Mother nature took our grove out since we could no longer kerosene heater protect it(big pollutant, it was nasty) in '82 and we went to cattle. No complaints.



If the hog farm was there first, they shouldn't have moved next to it because ... pigs stink.

Gina Spadafori

many many many children go to bed hungry every night.. they do not have the opportunity to “pick and choose” where their food comes from.. in fact.. they have no choice at all.. and are lucky just to get food..



Comment by bestuvall — April 28, 2010



Actually, as has been well-documented recently, the nutrition problems of poor children in America have nothing at all to do with "going to bed hungry" and everything to do with eating crap and ending up with the problems caused by obesity.



The cover article in the current Atlantic Monthly may bring you into the current century, where our military has expressed concern that our fast-food culture is producing young men and women who are too fat to fight.



The "elitist" charge is an easy one to make, and aimed to shut down discussion. I hear it all the time, usually thrown out by people who couldn't care less about the "poor people" they're claiming to be fighting for.



What health officials are fighting now: "Cheap" food is killing our kids, and creating another generation of obesity-related health problems for tomorrow's adults.



I don't know how old you are, but many Americans grew up not eating meat every meal. I've gone back to that, to the pot of beans and pastas of my youth. To offset the higher cost of the meat I do buy, I do eat less of it (and lesser cuts, and in bulk). But mostly, I make up the difference by making meals at home.



As for those "poor children" I don't care about as much as I presumably care about animals (another of those charges tossed out to shut down discussion): Part of my own volunteer commitment in my community is working with a local CSA to get fresh, healthy food to children who have no access to it, in some rough neighborhoods.



They are not "starving" children -- many of them are in fact fat -- but they have malnutrition nonetheless. As with most poor kids, the only "grocery store" in the neighborhood is a liquor store or some fast-food joints. And that's where they eat.



Cheap food isn't. And the bill is coming due.

mary frances

Have to add - PBS had on POV a documentary entitled Food, Inc - how our food supply is controlled by a small group of corporations - who are no surprise guided by profit not health concerns.



Also don't miss the short documentary following Food, Inc - entitled Milk in the Land: Ballad of an American drink - it's haunting in a way - politics involved in being an independent farmer.



great stuff.

Gina Spadafori

Amazing that we're approaching the 100 comment level without anyone answering the question of why good, reputable breeders who love dogs support puppy mills.



All that's been offered is HSUS bashing.



As Brent said: We need a third option.



As for Susi's quick take on the "Boss Hog" article, I'd recommend anyone interested in taking a read on your own. Because it's not about "stinky pigs" or the problem with those dumb city folks moving into the country.



And by the way, Susi, I'm wondering how much farming you actually do, since it appears from some simple use of Teh Googles that you live on a big suburban lot, not a farm.



Did you used to be a farmer? Just curious as to your "expert" credentials here.

LauraS

Amazing that we’re approaching the 100 comment level without anyone answering the question of why good, reputable breeders who love dogs support puppy mills.



Probably because the charge is a grossly exaggerated strawman.



The fact that many good, reputable breeders oppose "puppy mill" legislation does not mean they support substandard puppy mills.

Cait

Gina - I think it's a combination of things.



Firstly, I think there ARE some dog people- and I think this is a generational thing- who think that sanitary mills are okay, who do not feel a personal responsibility to place their puppies directly, maintain contact for life, or for their lives after the check has cleared. (These people would not meet my definition of responsible breeder- but they DO exist even in the 'fancy', either show or work/performance. And, on a semi-related topic, there's the dichotomy of 'this person does not meet the standards that I would tell people are necessary, but their dogs are excellent in some trait that I feel very strongly is necessary, and which I cannot obtain elsewhere for various reasons'- it seems like the more research I do, the more breeding is one series of compromises after another, and I think that's something that doesn't get talked about much)



Nextly, there's the people that are just plain scared. The commercial breeder/mill/whatever we're calling them today folks are organized and appear to be DOING things- and they don't act afraid. I think that's probably reassuring to some people.

Christie Keith

Both Gina and LauraS told me I had not expressed myself clearly in one section of this post, so I've made a slight edit. This is the original paragraph:



It's some kind of misguided fear of the slippery slope, that if one law gets passed anywhere limiting the rights of people to crank out puppies like they were washing machine parts then all of us who keep, breed, or simply value dog breeds will instantly and utterly lose our rights to continue doing so.



Because it's usually a proposed law that triggers the reaction I was discussing, my mind sort of jumped from "law as trigger" to "law as the thing we were supposed to be supporting."



That is not what I believe. The point of my objection was not that we should be supporting LAWS, but that we should be talking to others who also oppose puppy mills, and not simply abandon mill animals because we think it will hurt our own ability to keep and breed dogs.

Christie Keith

Cait wrote:



"The commercial breeder/mill/whatever we’re calling them today folks are organized and appear to be DOING things- and they don’t act afraid. I think that’s probably reassuring to some people."



I think so, too, but the fact is, those people couldn't care less about hobby breeders and fanciers and throw us under the bus every time -- as happened in California with mandatory spay/neuter.



We're being lumped with them because we've allowed it, and we're not even going to get the benefit of their lobbying and organizing, because they don't raise dogs in their homes and thus, couldn't care less about regulations that require things like drains and industrial HVAC systems (unless they're too expensive for them to keep making a profit).

Frank Losey

Christie:

Allow me to share my perspective of Stephanie Shane. Over the past 6+ years, I have had multiple conversations, meetings and other communications with her. While I personally believe that she believes what she is doing is right, and that she can be disarmingly cordial, I also believe that she has blindly carried out the agenda of the HSUS, which in reality, is not in the long term best interests of all responsible breeders, be they fanciers, hobby breeders or Federally licensed and inspected breeders who are required to meet Federal standards that are more stringent than those established for nursing homes where many of our loved ones must spend the Last Days of Their Lives. Again, allow me to tell you why, with a bit of background.



Personally, I hate loathe and despise “substandard kennels” for a myriad of reasons. That is why for the last four+ years I have personally urged State Pet Breeder Associations to follow the lead of the Missouri Pet Breeders Association, and PUBLICLY CONDEMN SUBSTANDARD KENNELS,WHICHTHEY DID OVER FOUR YEARS AGO. As of today, State Pet Breeder Associations in eight other States have now publicly condemned substandard kennels. Significantly, over 60% of all Federally licensed and inspected breeders are in those states. Additionally, the leadership of several of those Pet Breeder Associations include AKC breeders. Here is one of my “rubs” with the HSUS. Despite my repeated requests to Mr. Pacelle for the HSUS to publicly acknowledge these public condemnations, he refuses to do so. Why? I suspect he does not want to admit that there are thousands of responsible breeders who have publicly condemned substandard kennels because that could dilute the distorted image of ALL breeders that HSUS uses to perpetuate its lobbying and fund raising agendas.



By Letter dated April 4, 2009, I asked Mr. Pacelle to identify the more than 3,000 “p - - - - m - - - -,” that he claimed in his April 1, 2009 Blog were in Missouri. He passed my letter to Stephanie Shain for response. Stephanie did respond to my letter, but never identified a single “p - - - - m - - - .” Instead, said, “As I am sure you are aware, we likely have different ideas of what is a “p - - - - m - - - .” I understand that your constituency may prefer to use terms like “substandard kennels, but I don’t see semantics as the real issue here. We, and the constituents we speak with and for as well as reputable breeders we talk with, do not believe that dogs should live for years in cages even if those cages are cleaned regularly.” (Do any fanciers or hobby breeders ever use cages to house their dogs?!?!?!?)



By letter dated November 9, 2009 I again asked Mr. Pacelle to publicly acknowledge the public condemnations that had been made by responsible breeders. He responded by E-mail dated November 16, 2009. Again, he declined to do so, and stated that “Every p - - - - m- - - - - is a responsible breeder, every factory farmer a family farmer, and every poacher a responsible hunter, in terms of their self descriptions.”



BOTTOMLINE: Despite Stephanie’s representations to the contrary, I personally do not trust the HSUS to ever “TELL THE TRUTH , THE WHOLE TRUTH , AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH when it comes to responsible breeders, be they fanciers, hobby breeders or the responsible commercial breeders who are Federally licensed and inspected.



If all responsible breeders do not hang together, each will hang separately. And that is also why all responsible breeders should avoid using the HSUS “p - - - - m - - - “ phrase, which responsible breeders who truly care about the health and welfare of their animals consider to be the equivalent of a racial or ethnic slur.



Frank Losey

bestuvall

Lis.. I never said it could happen overnight.. my point is that there ARE good breeders who are hampered from breeding RIGHT NOW by laws put into place by the HSUS group of people....these breeders are RESTRICTED by limit laws.. onerous zoning laws and by the constant harassment of the HSUS ( and others like them)who are uneducated in dog husbandry. People like Pacelle who has never even OWNED a dog are telling those of us who DO know exactly how many times we can breed our dogs, how old they must be before their first litter.. and how old they must be before their last litter.. I don't know how many of these "plans of action" you have actually read.. but I suggest if you have not.. take a look.. there is NOTHING positive about breeders in that type of bill..

the original question here is "which do you hate more.. the HSUS or "puppy mills".. frankly I don't "hate either one.. I would actually like to see both disappear .. so that good breeder can continue to breed good dogs.. and so that the fraud perpetrated by the HSUS in so many arenas can dissipate and new groups who actually have animal welfare issues at heart can flourish would I like to "flood the market" with this type of action.. you bet I would

Christie Keith

Frank, I strongly and passionately disagree with you. Family pets from family homes. I don't want to see big commercial sources of puppies, no matter how clean and purty and non-sub-standard their facilities are. You and I don't see this issue the same way AT ALL, and I will never, ever get in bed with the organization you represent, the Missouri Pet Breeders Association, on this. And I'd spit on HSUS if they did, too.



Your frame is EXACTLY what I'm objecting to, and the term "puppy mill" is a powerful and accurate one I won't stop using, either.



I will thank you for being civil, however.

Gina Spadafori

"the long term best interests of all responsible breeders, be they fanciers, hobby breeders or Federally licensed and inspected breeders who are required to meet Federal standards [...]"



That last, Mr. Losey, is not a responsible breeder. It is a puppy mill.



"If all responsible breeders do not hang together, each will hang separately."



Under no conditions do I, as a reputable, ethical breeder, support puppy mills. You can hang alone, and I will fight breeding bans without you.



Laura S, you know I think the world of you, but this is what we're talking about. The "you have to defend puppy mills or the HSUS will get us all" is what is keeping good breeders from doing what's right: Fighting puppy-mills AND bad laws. Or, to put it in a positive light: Fighting FOR good breeders.

Susi

Trust” isn’t the issue here. The question is, again, why are good, reputable breeders so willing to side with puppy-millers? Because you’re scared? Understood. But I’m arguing fear of the great “AR” bogeyman isn’t reason enough to stand with puppy-millers. By my use of Teh Googles, you seem to be a reputable breeder who cares about her dogs. Don’t you care about the dogs in puppy mills? That’s really OK with you, how they’re treated?



It’s not with me.



I don’t “trust” the HSUS, either. “Trusting” isn’t my job, which is why when they’re not playing honestly, we call them on it. Have done so, and will continue to do so.



---------------

Let me ponder on that for a while Gina. I do have some ideas on that but gotta cook dinner for the hubbie and take care of the critters. Thank you for coming back at me with respect ... finally. BTW, I'm not a breeder either.

My last born here on this property is now eleven years old although I do lay claim for a some good co-breds.

later

Susi

Well, since you don't have my last name or my specific area, I don't know how you've googled me, Gina but I realize that the internet community is a small community. If by some way you've gotten my last name and specific area, let me just say kudos and that there are three of us with the same name in this community and one does live on a large surburban lot. I know because I am related by marriage to her. I'm flattered that you took the time to do so, think that it's relevant to the conversation when actually it's just a lame attempt to discredit me. Well there is that. lol



I come from farming stock, four generations actually and I've stated I am a gentlemen farmer these days ... the term means one who does not make their primary living from farming anymore. Which would probably make up a large majority of *small* family owned farms these days. None of which are capable of feeding the world, even together.



I grew up on a much larger cattle ranch that what we have now although this one has been in the family for three generations and initially it was a citrus grove/vegetable farm. Now it's not. Yes, I've been around cattle for some time ... and other farm animals, too to include dogs.



Now back to your question. No I don't trust HSUS, it's a big corporation ... something that so many profess to despise. It's a business to lobby against animal owner's and I don't respect no, I hate their inability to be truthful to their donation giving public.

Gina Spadafori

Now back to your question. No I don’t trust HSUS, it’s a big corporation … something that so many profess to despise. It’s a business to lobby against animal owner’s and I don’t respect no, I hate their inability to be truthful to their donation giving public.



Comment by Susi — April 28, 2010



That wasn't the question.



"Trust" isn't the issue here. The question is, again, why are good, reputable breeders so willing to side with puppy-millers? Because you're scared? Understood. But I'm arguing fear of the great "AR" bogeyman isn't reason enough to stand with puppy-millers. By my use of Teh Googles, you seem to be a reputable breeder who cares about her dogs. Don't you care about the dogs in puppy mills? That's really OK with you, how they're treated?



It's not with me.



I don't "trust" the HSUS, either. "Trusting" isn't my job, which is why when they're not playing honestly, we call them on it. Have done so, and will continue to do so.



Like Christie, I support the HSUS calling out puppy-millers. And like Christie, I don't support breeding bans, limit laws and other actions that have what may or may not be unintended consequences with regard to reputable, ethical breeders.



It's just so much easier to hate on something isn't it? Sell out someone else to protect what you want. Tell yourself there really aren't "puppy mills," and that the AR folks make it all up, when you yourself don't even believe that.



This is why I so respect Laura S. She is not a breeder -- she is a search-and-rescue handler -- and yet she has fought tooth and nail on behalf of laws that restrict good, reputable breeders. She doesn't like coming to Sacramento, but she has done it so much her car knows the way. She could likely have sold out the whole lot of show and dogsport breeders and let us all go down with the puppy-millers during the AB 1634 fight, but she did not.



She stood and fought for what was right, not what was politically expedient.



It comes back to the third way. We have to find it.

Mary Mary

“As I am sure you are aware, we likely have different ideas of what is a “p - - - - m - - - .” I understand that your constituency may prefer to use terms like “substandard kennels, but I don’t see semantics as the real issue here. We, and the constituents we speak with and for as well as reputable breeders we talk with, do not believe that dogs should live for years in cages even if those cages are cleaned regularly.” (Do any fanciers or hobby breeders ever use cages to house their dogs?!?!?!?)



Comment by Frank Losey



Frank, if fanciers or hobby breeders make their "breeding stock" live outside in cages or even in clean warm buildings in cages, I would argue that they are providing substandard care.



Thus they are not quality breeders, or just maybe we could call them micro m_____s.



Do you and your organization think it's OK to make a pet live away from the human pack? I looked at your website but could not find anything about what you (plural) consider "substandard" care.



You are PET breeders. Are these puppies being socialized, housebroken, etc., as part of the family pack? So that their PET training starts at birth, not at the point of sale at a pet store?

Mary Mary

Frank,



I found this site a while ago that shows the USDA allowance for cage size. You can calculate it based on the dog's size.



http://www.animalarkshelter.org/animal/ShelterLife.nsf/CageSizeCalculator?OpenForm



Is this what your organization would consider acceptable? I'm not the best at math, but it seems like a beagle might spend its entire life in a cage a little bigger than a bathtub.



And this would meet federal guidelines.

Gina Spadafori

Let me ponder on that for a while Gina. I do have some ideas on that but gotta cook dinner for the hubbie and take care of the critters. Thank you for coming back at me with respect … finally. BTW, I’m not a breeder either.

My last born here on this property is now eleven years old although I do lay claim for a some good co-breds.

later



Comment by Susi — April 28, 2010



Thanks, Susi!



Sometimes when everyone flames out ... we can then start to talk, really talk. :)

The comments to this entry are closed.

Enter your email address:

Delivered by FeedBurner