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I'll be liveblogging today's FDA/USDA/CBP (Customs and Border Protection) joint media telebriefing today, which starts at 2 PM Eastern Time. Present today will be:
* David Acheson, M.D., assistant commissioner for food protection, Office of the Commissioner, FDA
* Kenneth Petersen, D.V.M., M.P.H., assistant administrator for field operations, Food Safety and Inspection Service, USDA
* Stephen Sundlof, D.V.M., Ph.D., director, Center for Veterinary Medicine, FDA
* Robert Ali, deputy assistant commissioner for public affairs, Office of the Commissioner, FDA
* Michael Rogers, director, Division of Field Investigations, Office of Regulatory Affairs, FDA
Usual disclaimers: I'm doing this live, there will be typos, only things in quotation marks are direct quotes, the rest is a paraphrase. We'll post the link to the actual transcript when it's ready, usually within 24-48 hours.
Our musical interlude this morning is the original version of "Tracks of My Tears" by Smokey Robinson and the Miracles.
Music has now changed to Bette Midler's "The Rose."
2:06 PM Eastern time, we're now listening to Don McLean's (sp?) "Starry, Starry Night."
2:09 PM ET and we begin.
Hosted by Robert Ali FDA media relations.
Speakers will be David Acheson (FDA) and Kenneth Petersen (USDA).
Acheson: Today he'll update on three areas.
1. Contaminated fish feed
2. Sampling and testing
3. Update on China investigation
Since began in March, have been conducting investigation that started with melamine contaminated pet food. Led places not expected. Gone where leads have taken it. Have discussed information publicly as soon as they knew it and it was validated. It's not in the public's interest to share unvalidated information, but we realize this often leaves unanswered questions.
Feed was manufactered under BioOregon Label out of Longview, WA.
That same lot was sent to several other hatcheries in Oregon. He named them but spoke to fast for me to get it. Company is offereing replace feed.
Working to determine scope, and to see if any of the fish fed the contaminated feed were released to the environment or the market.
Based on the risk assessment, humans who may have eaten fish "face a very low health risk."
Constant communication with FWS, Canandian gov't, etc.
Turning now to discuss second area, what is ongoing with sampling.
Focus on imports. Summarize where we currently are.
All vegetable protein products imported or shipped from China cannot enter the country unless tested for melamine, cyanuric acid, or other melamine-related compounds. Also have sampling assignment for pet food from China. Also will begin soon to sample animal feed. Including fish feed.
Domestic assignments are underway. Visiting manufacturers and processors in the US who use protein concentrates, obtaining samples, testing for melamine and related compounds, raising safety awareness with them, and doing targeted sampling of finished food products. Targeted at pet food, animal food, and human food.
Finally, brief summary on China.
Team has been in China since April 30. AQSIQ has been briefed on results of investigation. Cooperation between investigatoin and Chinese authorities. Has visited "both of the firms" involved. Labs are testing samples from "both of the firms." Officials of the firms have been detained.
Investigation continues. Discussions continue on food protection.
Now Kenneth Petersen, USDA.
The same group of scientists who participated in the human health risk assessment are working on an animal exposure assessment. To assess how levels will dissipate from animal's body over time. Not complete. Nor is test for melamine in swine muscle meat. Pending more data, situation for USDA remains the same.
Swine and poultry remain under control on the farms we have previously noted in these calls.
Open to questions.
[Continued after the jump]
CNN: Asking about redacted contaminant on FDA website (Note: as mentioned by Itchmo last night!)
Acheson: "It's redacted for a reason." Cannot answer.
Michael Rogers: That's information we don't want to disclose. Also about the variety of tests we intend to engage in.
Reporter: Small family farms in Utah are anxiously awaiting news about their held hogs. Contaminated feed is sitting in landfill. Swine are beyond their prime.
Petersen: Validated test for swine meat is important. Need it for exposure assessment. Not just Utah but also elsewhere. We hope it's ready soon. Want scientists to have the time to make the appropriate judgment. Until due diligence is completed, I cannot give you a timeline. I think it will be soon. We certainly understand the economic impact and difficulty this is creating for these farmers. We are certainly sensitive to that. They have been contacted regarding Sect 32 funds to restore their purchasing power. There will be at least a safe harbor for their market share. Soon is the best I can do.
Reporter: Can you describe the nature of the test regarding if the meat is tainted or not?
Petersen: Sophisticated analytic method. Laboratories, FERN, doing testing. Want to reach agreement this is the right test.
Steve Dale: This wasn't real protein if it was wheat flour. May have been going on a long time. Were our pets, esp cats, not getting enough protein. Or were we at least paying for something we weren't getting. Over time, did this lack of protein impact our dog or cat's health?
Dr. Sundloff: That's a reasonable point to raise. All the pets that are commercially available are nutritionally balanced to meet the needs of dogs and cats. Too little protein can make problems. In terms of duration, RPC entered August 2006, wheat gluten in Nov 2006, so has not been a long time, at least for these two companies. They are the only two companies "we are aware of" that sold contaminated ingredients. If it's not longstanding, impact was the immediate one. At this point, not aware of any nutritional deficiencies due to substitution of a less than potent protein supplement into the pet food.
Lynn Terry, The Oregonian: In terms of animal and fish feed. How expensive will that be? You're going to be testing imports from China. But how can the two agencies possibly police all this?
Acheson: Regarding domestic surveillance assignment is targeted on raising awareness. Focused on protein concentrates. Clearly we cant' get to everyone in the first few days. Keep assignment rolling long enough to get to everyone as quickly as we can with the resources we have. We're looking for melamine and related compounds in areas where we don't know there is a problem. We started where we KNEW there was a problem - pet food, then chicken feed, then fish. We're trying to be proactive. That's the issue on the assignment.
In terms of products coming into the US, products from China that go to another country then into the US, we do the paperwork associated with that and are trying to look into that, and try to treat them the same.
With respect to the third arm, which is finished products that might have been turned into food and then shipped into the US, we'll be getting more into that. Right now the focus has been on the areas of maximum concern, the risk we know is there.
Rogers: The countrywide import alert is for bulk vegetable proteins from China. All those shipments have 100 percent sampling. Importer must demonstrate not contaminated - "some verification" is done by the Agency. (???)
We are also looking at bulk shipments from other sources, to see if those are ultimately from China. "Some of those" "will be sampled."
Oregonian: You repeatedly said there is no harm to humans even though hogs did get to dinner tables. No results were ever released about concentrations of melamine and/of cyanuric acid. Very little scientific date. How can you say it's safe?
Acheson: Risk assessment was using animal exposure data. You're correct, there's been no studies ever done on melamine to humans. One has to extrapolate. That's standard in toxicology.
There is always some level of uncertainty. Assessment usually includes a safety factor. They do take that into account. We know at what level melamine causes a problem in a rat. "It's orders of magnitude higher than anything we have ever seen in any of these products." (MY THOUGHT: Then why did pets get sick and die?)
In doing the risk assessment, they put it all into account. You end up with an over two thousand fold safety factor between what you may find in the muscle and what could be of risk to the human.
As to the compounds together. Pure melamine, no problem until very high levels. When you put together with cyanuric acid, form crystals in kidneys. That's what we believe in the scenario in the pets. Pets received a much higher level than humans ever would from consuming hogs and poultry.
This is a scientific process. We have a lot of confidence that consumers can be "reassured that eating muscle meat from these animals is not going to pose a threat."
Andrew Bridges, AP: Can you point to any studies in any species on the combination of these compounds?
Acheson: Nothing published. Additive, rather than synergistic. One and one is two, not five. All indications are, and I agree this is limited, that this is an additive phenomenon. Even if synergism were likely to occur, it's not likely to increase risk more than (missed).
AP: Have you looked at how more or less soluble wheat flour is than wheat gluten? Could that have led to higher concentrtaions in pet food?
Acheson: Doesn't know if companies looked at that. Companies go through quality control. If it doesn't work, they'd know, so I can only assume that the melamine was not there in high enough quantities to interfere with the performance of the product.
Washington Post: Regarding domestic assignment, said you'd started testing some human food and animal feed products. Have you had any positive tests yet? Also, second distributor in US, in IL, that has accepted RPC contaminated with melamine from China? Is it RPC? Was it mislabled?
Acheson: We do have samples in the lab, have found nothing positive other than the ones we were already aware of.
FDA: Have analyzed 850 products. More than 500 tested positive, relating to 92 lots. "We have no knowledge to suggest any contaminated bulk products were shipped directly to firms that manufacture products for humans." Can't give a split on the numbers.
WaPo: Second imported stream of labeled RPC. Rep. DeLauro says a company in IL issued a recall.
Acheson: Some of our testing has indicated that some of the labeled RPC was not RPC, it was wheat flour. Some of the RPC we tested was mislabled. As far as IL, we dont' have anything more to tell you on that.
Rogers: Yes, there was a second company in IL. But all positive samples are from the same two sources in China, including the one in IL.
Acheson: We can anticipate that other things will come to light as we follow this. EVERYTHING is still ultimately linking back to the same two companies in China. That's an important point. But we are looking outside that scope and nothing has come up.
Elizabeth Weise, USA Today: Said she likes the new music playing while on hold.
Why haven't we seen more of this? Was it really only these two companies?
Acheson: You're not the first to ask that. Without being able to turn time back, we can't know. It never came to light before. Possibly because melamine at low doses is "not problematic." It does appear to form crystals mixed with other compounds. Speculates maybe those two shipments had more cyanuric acid or other compounds. Yes, it's possible it's been going on longer.
EW: Percentage of vegetable protein concentrate we use in the US?
Acheson: Does not know.
Reuters: How many states, what kind of tonnage, of fish meal? Only one manufacturer?
Rogers: A firm Skirretting (sp?) "went public" and notified customers. Our investigation related to RPC shipped to a manufacturer in Canda, made a pre-mix, sold it to Skirretting, has hundreds of customers. Only two are commercial manufacterers. Is notifying companies that they know rec'd suspect product, and some who may have. Firms were told to return product. The two commercial facilities, FDA will be visiting those.
Reuters: How big are those facilities and where are they?
Rogers: I don't know size. As far as location, we believe they received it. This came to light yesterday. We don't know they used it or what products it may have been used. So at this point we won't disclose that.
Acheson: We are sharing everything we know that we believe is validated. It would be inappropriate to share that at this point.
Reporter: There are several hatcheries in WA that use that product. What are you telling them to do as far as fish that were fed suspect product, and what are your concerns about fish released into the wild?
Acheson: Fish meal and fish feed are different. This is fish FEED, not fish MEAL. Technical point. What the hatcheries are doing, that's part of the investigation and what it will tell us. As to whether some of these may have been released into the wild and what the impact, as we learn more about the toxicology, the longterm bioaccumulation in fish will be determined. Those experiments aren't done, this is a brand new issue. We did include fish in the risk assessment, and it suggests risks to humans is very low.
Reporter: What I asked is what you told the hatcheries to do? Hold the fish?
Acheson: If they used the feed, we're telling them to stop using it. We're trying to get to these places so we can give them appropriate advice.
David Barbosa, NY Times: What are officials finding in China? Have they interviewed the producers, learned anything more than what you've said?
Walter Batts: Getting very good cooperation. Visited two facilities. Nothing to be found. Currently are not operating. The officials are being detained. Our investigators have not interviewed them.
NY Times: If they are getting cooperation, why aren't they getting access to the officials and testing the facilities?
Batts: There is nothing to be seen at the facilities. Closed down, machinery dismantled. Nothing to get access to. Chinese did collect samples before we got there. Are being analyzed by an independent laboratory.
Abigail Goldman, LA Times: Slowly spell the fish companies that got the contaminated fish feed. In general, is it true that fish bioaccumulate contaminants more than other animals?
Acheson: Names, I'll refer you to the press release from Oregon Fish and Wildlife.
Sundoloff: Bioaccumulation in aquatic systems is fat soluble compounds that accumulate up the food chains. Food chains are long, get cumulative effect concentrated in top carnivores. Melamine is very water soluble and is excreted quickly. That is in fact why it causes so many kidney problems. We would not exect melamine to bioaccumulate in aquatic systems.
Kansas City Star: What gluten and wheat flour dont' look anything alike.
Acheson: Have to get back to you. Can only assume it's not an obvious difference. It was our forensic chemistry center that measured starch levels.
This may not have been pure wheat flour. In truth, we don't know exactly what it is. The melamine may have changed it. If this product looked different then the manufacturers as part of quality control would have noticed that. It was definitely mis-labeled, but I think it was more complex than just wheat flour plus melamine.
Bloomberg News: Passes.
CBS News affiliate in TX: Facility in OR, and two others? Three suspicious?
Rogers: No. In discussions with the firm, we learned they have 198 domestic companies. A finished feed product that tested positive in OR. In tracing forward, we identified 198 facilities in the US that may have rec'd feed containing suspect lot. Firm said they would notify those companies. The number two is the two COMMERCIAL manufacturers that may, or may not, have received contaminated feed. We will be visiting them.
CBS: Is there an updated number on pet deaths?
Response, not sure who: No more. 18,000 calls rec'd. Have entered a number and continue to enter. Quick review that allege animal death suggest as many as 50 percent allege an animal death. Agency will be evaluating the data and certainly will come out with a characterization of the data.
Chicago Tribune: Can confirm an IL company that rec'd contaminated RPC and distributed it?
Rogers: Yes.
Tribune: Can you name it?
Rogers: These press conferences are designed to alert the public, but our investigative process involves determining scope and if products were distributed. We are in discussions with these firms and if it's determined a recall is necessary, the firms will say that and we'll put it on our website.
Reporter: Clarifying how many calls and animal deaths.
Reply: Has rec'd 18,000 calls alleging animal illness or death. Quick review suggests as many as 50 percent MAY allege animal death. Final numbers is longer term process.
Reporter: When will investigators come back from China?
Batts: Within next week.
ABC News: Said you were happy with cooperation in China. You can't interview people detained, nothing at the plants. So what is China cooperating on? Has anyone tested melamine on live animals.
Batts: They were very cooperative with the visas. Not sure where that information came of. This was taken care of within a day, in one case an hour. There was no problem with visas.
The agency in China, AQSIQ, has limited authority over the firms. It has hampered what they were able to do before we arrived on site. They carried out an extensive investigation before we got there. We are satisfied they shared with us documents they obtained and anything they found. The fact the companies shut down their facilities is just a fact and not to be blamed on lack of cooperation by Chinese authorities.
ABC News: Testing of melamine and cyanuric acid testing on live animals anywhere now? Or remains of animals who ate the bad pet food?
Petersen: I'm not aware, but researchers at Universities may be working on something.
Acheson: We have initiated discussions with our researchers to begin to map out what studies might get some of these issues reviewed. They are valid but right now key focus is on developing assays so we can determine degree of safety of food supply.
NPR: Regarding import alert on vegetable protein, what volume is involved? Is FDA testing these imports, if not who is, and what have results shown so far?
Acheson: Import alert is 100 percent. Stopping EVERY vegetable protein concentrate from China. To get it released, company has to come to us with validated tests, paperwork, assurances, that this material is okay, free of melamine and other compounds. Sampling assignment is different. We have 100 percent sampling assignment on pet food. That means WE take the samples and process them in our labs. (NOTE: I want to follow up on this.)
NPR: Volume coming in?
Response: Responded but I missed it.
Sundloff: Wants to clarify on number of pet deaths. I don't want to leave the misimpression that FDA thinks there are 9000 pet deaths. We have rec'd over 18,000 calls. Around 8,000 have been entered in. Of those, approx half report deaths. But a lot of these, in fact few if any, have been substantiated. A lot were from "concerned and distraught pet owners." We are working with AVMA and diagnosticians, doing autopsy work on these pets, and with some of the larger pet hospitals like Banfield, to collate all the reports, develop criteria to determine if pet food was cause of death, and to come up with what we believe was the true scope. Will probably be the fall before we have that.
Dorothy Griffith, Sacramento Bee: Fish meal or fish feed?
Acheson: Product is fish FEED. I apologize if I got my nomenclature muddled up. It is all FISH FEED. Food fed to fish. Fish meal is a product of rendering fish and has a different purpose. If I said fish meal, I apologize. It is fish feed.
Conference ends.
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Christie - how's your head? My head hurts just thinking about what they'll make up this time.
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
*Cracks open brand new bottle of tequila. Looks around to see who is joining me this time*
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Ohhh! I'm in!!!
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
'Course it DID take me an entire day to get over the last hangover Kim caused. Heh.
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
LOL Ally - I was on the floor all day yesterday.
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
I was just at the grocery store and couldn't figure out why I was buying limes - NOW I know. ;-)
*Slices limes for everyone. Passes salt shaker.*
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Booze at the ready and just a hint , keep a laundry basket full of rolled up socks by your desk, the urge to throw things may strike. Balled up socks are fun for the cats and do very little damage, compared to ,say, the desk organizer that, oddly, flew across the room during a previous FDA media event.
Posted by: E. Hamilton | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
LOL E! (Have tossed many a desk item in my lifetime...)
Wait - did they just say - BEGIN to sample animal feed?????
*looks quickly around for dirty socks from this morning*
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
who's doing the testing on the vegetable protein?
also, pet food from China? whose is that?
Posted by: Cynthia | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Mighty sweet of you Kim. Thanks! :)
*takes a lime & a swig*
*passes bottle and lime/salt hostess tray to E. *
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
and if there's time to ask questions... can they comment on the pregnant woman/melamine alert? and the literature from 1966?
Posted by: Cynthia | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Note: To minimize head-exploding drink *before* reading what Christie's typing.
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Nestle's china pet food?
Posted by: Ann H. | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
I thought the "one firm" they're investigating was bulldozed by the former owner, now prisoner, soon to be plasticized organ donor.
Posted by: Cynthia | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
"about redacted contaminant on FDA website"
???
what's that?
*reaches for limes*
Posted by: Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
"Team has been in China since April 30....Cooperation between investigatoin and Chinese authorities. Has visited “both of the firms” involved."
But they sure didn't get a chance to visit the factory that was BULLDOZED in the wee hours of the night? Just *before* the Chinese decided to "cooperate"?
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Information we don't want to disclose???
Who has the tequila? Pass it please!
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Never mind.
*Opens another bottle*
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
I need to buy new boots! My old ones seem to have gotten way too dirty lately.
Posted by: Therese | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
cynthia - sorry cross posting with you. was too busy passing the hostess tray...
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Takes a swig, and the desk organizer I threw against the wall? It had a calculator that just disintegrated on impact and little numbers flew everywhere.
When my husband arrived home after work , he sat on one that I had missed , looked at my desk and the mark on the wall and rather mildly asked " Was it an FDA media event again, or did Duane say something, hon?".
Posted by: E. Hamilton | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Ooo how mysterious and 007 they are!
Posted by: Cynthia | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
ROFLMAO E...
You're better than tequila!
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
sorry Petersen. Analytical chemistry in a forensic capacity is not that big of a deal. Do they think we're all uneducated, non-professional dopes?
Posted by: Cynthia | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
That's how they've treated us from the beginning, why should they change?
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
great minds think alike Ally
Posted by: Cynthia | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
It is nearly 80 degrees here and mid afternoon. I brought the jello shots-
In every color.
Nancy
Posted by: nancy | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
PETERSEN, USDA: "...poultry remain under control on the farms we have previously noted in these calls."
Wait, wait....WAIT. Is he talkin' about the same 20,000,000 mela-chickens the USDA cleared for take-off on 5/7/07:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUKN0734189520070507
???
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Holy crap. Look at this document - anything that is a & or # is where information has been deleted/redacted.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/protsurv.html
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Cynthia - LOL! or two minds feeling the effects of ta-killya....;)
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
I have a terrible confession to make, I have never had a jello shot, plan to have a different answer tomorrow, set em up, rainbow me!
Posted by: E. Hamilton | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
re: Comment by Lola
This sounds more pessimistic than my point of view. The US import law already specifies that we can only import agricultural products from countries with equivalent safety and environmental standards -- which clearly isn't true of China (or India, for that matter). The FDA and Customs Agency are both already complicit in breaking this law, so I'm not sure why anybody thinks more restrictions on imports are going to change anything. THAT'S a pipe dream!
South Africa has already banned Chinese grain imports. Louisiana and Mississippi have banned catfish from Vietnam and China. And China banned US beef because of a single instance of mad cow.
It's time for us all to stop whining, tighten our belts, and get ready for a trade war. I don't care how "in debt" we are to China. Someone tried to kill my cat last week, and his life (and my own) have no monetary value. Get ready for a "Tea Party"!
Posted by: Palomino | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:33 am
Anyone have a sceen grab of the original for comparison?
Holy crap Batman is right.
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
What are they hiding???!!!
*guzzles tequila*
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
WHY do we still import from China when there are farmers here in the USA???????????????? Am I totally missing something????
Posted by: Therese | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Palomino - may I ask a wee favor? I think you've posted that same post in about 4 different threads here. We hear ya!
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
"One has to extrapolate...." Extrapolate this, bucko!
Kim, tequila, please.....
Posted by: JanC | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
"What are they hiding???!!!"
What AREN'T they hiding?!!
Kim - is the worm still left in the bottle?
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
fRICK & fRACK need to ask the Chinese doctors what happens to humans...
Posted by: Ann H. | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Since we, and our pets, have no value, there is a lesson here for our government and the pet industry.
Those with nothing to lose make very effective enemies and often triumph.
Learn it the hard way if you must, but learn it you will.
Posted by: E. Hamilton | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Rogers: The countrywide import alert is for bulk vegetable proteins from China. All those shipments have 100 percent sampling. Importer must demonstrate not contaminated - “some verification” is done by the Agency. (???)
So in other words Rogers, nothings changed. Still taking the importer's word for it. How can contamination be demonstrated if NO ONE IS LOOKING!!!????
Posted by: Cynthia | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
The worm is all yours Ally
*passes Ally bottle #2*
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
I've got a few cases of tequila over here...enough for anybody who wants a big ole bottle!
Posted by: Therese | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
E. are you Yoda?
Posted by: Cynthia | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Kim - I do adore ya chica, I really do.
My leaps know no bounds.
*hic*
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
Cynthia, you kidding?
E. is Yoda's sen-sai.
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
I'm on my way, Therese.....but I have to get the worm.....oh, yuk....
Posted by: JanC | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
On my way Therese!
Posted by: Kim | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
..."and doing targeted sampling of finished food products."
Can someone ask him if that's still going to be only 1% tested?
Or have we moved on to the whopping 2%?
Posted by: Ally | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM
oh yum,, if it ain't muscle meat, it's going to pet food
Posted by: Ann H. | 09 May 2007 at 08:00 PM