More tales of a newly-urbanized dog mom

I come again to whine about other people's off leash dogs.



Make that, I come again to whine about other people.



This morning, a Jack Russell terrier came racing up to Rebel and Kryie in the park, barking furiously and bristling with the indignation appropriate to a very, very small dog confronted with two dogs approximately ten times his size.



By which I mean, a completely brain dead dog confronted with two dogs approximately ten times his size. This guy may have been bold, but bright, not so much.



I held Rebel and Kyrie close to me. They were both leashed. Neither one reacted as the little dog raced up to us. They didn't even bark. I called out, "My dogs are on leash. Could you please call your dog?"



The owner, who was invisible, started calling her dog. He ignored her. She finally appeared around a bend in the path, followed by her Rottweiler. She told her Rottie to "stay," and came trotting down the path to retrieve her terrier. The Rottie followed her. The JRT ignored her.



As the Rottie approached, Rebel and Kyrie finally started barking. The lady gave me a grin and said, "He's a Jack Russell, he can't help himself."



"Then you help him, " I snapped. "If he doesn't listen to you, he should be on a leash."



"This is a dog play area," she responded. "The dogs have to be off leash. You shouldn't be here with dogs on leash."



No, really, she said that. Because this was - yes, I'm sure you guessed it - MY FAULT.



I pointed out that the sign actually said that off-leash dogs needed to be under their owner's voice control and that "aggressive dogs" were required to be on leash, so obviously this area was not exclusively for the use of off-leash dogs. Especially since it was an open area of the park, not fenced or in any way restricted for canine use.



After I informed her of her stupidity ignorance of the rules, the terrier started leaping in Rebel's face. Let me remind you: Rebel, 120 pounds and almost three feet tall at the shoulder. Terrier: Size of a loaf of bread. I hauled Rebel and Kyrie more tightly against me, told her to get her dog, and asked her the very sensible question, "Are you crazy?"



"No," she answered, walking away. "But I think you are."



Her dogs actually followed her, and after a minute, I took Kyrie and Rebel home.

Comments

[KT]

Aww. You didn't let Rebel have the load of bread? You could have served it with some candied walnuts!



;)

[Cynthia]

I am thinking there might be some detail missing from this story, about your own feelings about dogs running towards you (perhaps this scares you) or what happened after the JRT came up to your dogs and before the owner retrieved her dog. My comment here is taking your missive at face value, that no one was hurt and that the JRT barked but was not otherwise threatening. IMHO, this sounds like a perfectly fine interaction between dogs. As a dog owner in a small town where many dogs are off leash most of the time, I've noticed that dogs who are accustomed to being off-leash tend to be better at greetings than dogs who are accostomed to being held back from what is natural greeting behavior in the dog world. By this I mean that they are less likely to rush other dogs and that they are more likely to submit to being rushed and smelled. I have noticed that dogs on-leash tend to be act more fearful, and understandably so, of dogs who are off-leash. My interpretation of this is that they cannot respond with free movement - they cannot get away nor can they approach and circle other dogs in natural ways. Additionally, a dog takes clues from his alpha. If that is you, and you are conveying anger or fear at the approach of another dog, I guarantee you that your dog has taken this information into account. I used to be scared when other dogs approached my dog because of my dog's fear-based greeting behavior (based on a bad experience when he was a puppy). When I started transmitting confidence in my dog and the other dogs about greetings and encouraging my dog, "Good dogs!", greetings turned around completely. I happen to not believe that people who keep their dogs on-leash are "good" and people who don't are "bad", nor that dogs who are not completely under voice command are dangerous. This is my bias. I feel sad for dogs who do not get time to run and interact with other dogs and people off-leash. I encourage you to look at this differently - that if you do take your dogs to off-leash parks, you will meet very loving and dedicated dog owners who do may not have complete voice-control over their dogs, who are spending their limited time with their beloved pets in a situation that is not perfectly controlled, but can be fun for all given a change in your perspective.

[Cate]

When asked why I quit taking my hounds to our local dog park I always say it was because of the crazy people, not the "bad" dogs.

[Megan]

I'm so sorry to hear that. As someone who has one of those smaller, not-so-bright dogs, I get so frustrated when I hear about people who don't take care of such dogs and keep them away from situations where they're going to get into trouble. Sigh....



Hope your next trips to the off-leash area (if there are any) are when it park is populated by smarter *people*.

[nancy]

At the risk of feeling your wrath, I am daring to offer a view. As a former city dweller (Boston) and an avid off leash dog walker, I think you do need to re-consider this. In Boston no-where is designated off leash, off leash dogs were every where. Personally as a trainer, I don't think there really is such a thing as voice control. After all we are talking about dogs. My dogs can be highly skilled and trained, but all dogs have 'something" that will cause them to break, or wander further than their humans wish they would.

I totally get that your dogs have a strong prey drive. The easy, low blood pressure way to prepare for the "next event" would be to keep a few biscuits in your pocket and chuck them towards the owners (for the dogs) while you make an exit. Or feed your own dogs to keep their attention off the loaf o bread. Most dogs can learn that approaching dogs are a precursor that good things (food) are coming.

Don't think I don't understand, cause I do. I have a leash reactive nut case of a dog, and dogs who come up to me like that, undo months and years of hard work. What I am saying is that scenario is sure to repeat itself and preparded is the way to go.

You and your dogs deserve to have peaceful safe walks and a few biscuits can go a long way.

If I had a JRT, I bet I would let if zoom around a park to.

Nancy

[Christie Keith]

Personally as a trainer, I don’t think there really is such a thing as voice control. After all we are talking about dogs. My dogs can be highly skilled and trained, but all dogs have ’something” that will cause them to break, or wander further than their humans wish they would.



Having had dogs who were under my voice control and dogs who weren't, I disagree. I have had dogs who ALWAYS came when I called them. And I know that these two dogs aren't there, and thus, they are on a leash.



What I am saying is that scenario is sure to repeat itself and preparded is the way to go.



I am perfectly prepared and perfectly in control of my dogs. You'll note NOTHING HAPPENED to her dog, even though this tiny thing the size of a freaking walnut jumped into the face of my 120 pound hound.



So don't turn this around on me. Neither I nor my dogs did anything at all wrong, and I was in control of my dogs and prepared for this to happen. That's why there was no adverse outcome.



My purpose in posting this is to get people who own those completely out of control dogs to be realistic about the risk they are putting their brave, foolish little dogs in. They might not be so lucky as to encounter my dogs next time.

[Christie Keith]

IMHO, this sounds like a perfectly fine interaction between dogs.



Except that this dog's owner let him go racing off out of her line of sight, up to two leashed dogs ten times his size, and he could have gotten killed.



Her dog leaped into my dog's face. People with little dogs never seem to understand that a big dog can take this as an attack. They seem to think this is quite funny. Neither I nor my dogs find it amusing.



Her dog was running ahead of her on the path. She could have encountered a person scared of dogs, someone on horseback, a squirrel, a housecat, an aggressive dog, anything. She was being grossly irresponsible and it's nothing but luck her dog was okay.



I feel sad for dogs who do not get time to run and interact with other dogs and people off-leash. I encourage you to look at this differently - that if you do take your dogs to off-leash parks, you will meet very loving and dedicated dog owners who do may not have complete voice-control over their dogs, who are spending their limited time with their beloved pets in a situation that is not perfectly controlled, but can be fun for all given a change in your perspective.



If this were an area set aside for dogs, such as a fenced dog run, I'd agree. If I really was so stupid as to go into a designated dog play area with dogs on a leash, I'd have earned some of this, but I think my description, while perhaps not entirely detailed enough to give you the full picture, did clearly state that the owner was on a twisting path out of sight of her dog.



This was not a dog park. It's just a large city park that allows dogs under voice control to be off leash. The owner couldn't even see her dog, which I clearly stated in the post. I would never let any dog of mine run out of my sight. If I couldn't control them with my voice, I'd have kept them leashed until I got to a safe area.

[Meryl]

As a sorta-kinda aside--I think little dog owners can afford to be much more complacent about this issue in some ways. Think about if one of Christie's dogs had attacked the Jack--all we'd be hearing is how the big, vicious dog attacked the sweet, little puppy-- regardless of who started it. Big dog owners have to be a little defensive.



And (as the owner of one of those lovable little terriers) it seems that little dog owners who want to keep their dogs in one piece would be more cautious too. I get so, SO tired of hearing people say, "Well he's a terrier" as an excuse for letting their untrained dogs run amuck and do whatever. My dog is certainly not perfect, and I know that terriers can be difficult to train; but that doesn't mean you (as the thinking end of the leash) have to just shrug like there's nothing you can do about it. As Christie said, if you don't have control keep your dog leashed until you get to a safe area. Period. End of story.

[victoria]

Hi- I feel ya Christie, and then some. I had a dog aggressive standard poodle for ten years. She went out on a long line, so I could reel her in at the sight of a (usually suicidal) terrier or mop dog. I cannot count the number of times she snarled and lunged with me holding her collar as some ass-wipe dog tried to force her to murder it and the person laughed "oh0 he's just barking, he wants to play". Well my dog didn't play. Yes, she had the 'nice' command, the 'off' command, the attention heeling, a solid stay and psychopharm interventions- but she loved to fight. I will never underestimate the stupidity of people and their interpretations of dog behavior. God rest her soul- I still miss my Agnes.

Victoria

[KathyF]

I'm surprised to hear this happens so often. I think there's a lot to be said for dogs training other dogs. Around here, where off-leash is the rule rather than the exception, out-of-control dogs are rare. (I do occasionally see dogs (large dogs) with muzzles, which indicates they may have tried to bite once, and their owners aren't willing to take a chance.)



But day after day, I see dogs approach other dogs, do the sniff, then walk away. Once or twice I've had a dalmation bark aggressively at my dog, or another dog want to play too much, but mostly they work it out. I've only yelled at one owner, who stayed on her bike while her lab Duke tried to rape mine. I guess the nobility haven't really changed!

[Gina Spadafori]

Kathy ... your last comment made me snort my coffee out through my nose!

[Judi]

Christie - just curious, do you ever go to the dog park w/ your dogs? A leashed area and let them run with other dogs?

[kasie]

I understand Christie's feelings, but I also agree with what some of the other comments. We live in a dense urban environment where most dogs are off-leash in the parks - a wonderland for the well-socialized and voice-controlled dog. However, leashed dogs (much like intact males) are frequently targeted by other dogs, and get harassed sometimes. It happens. Don’t let it bother you too much - it's just life in the big city. There's a big difference between a little barky dog buzzing around your dogs, and a larger dog lunging, teeth bared, directly for your dog's throat - realize that some barking, while annoying, it's usually no more than harmless noise.



My first Dane (who was very dog and human aggressive and moved here from 40 acres in Oregon) was under excellent voice control, but going to popular off-leash areas was not an option for us. We went to places that were less frequented by dogs, went out at odd hours, etc. It took more of an effort to find places where we could go, but we made it work and it's totally doable. People let their dogs run up to all 165-70 lbs., black, spiked collar on a leash walking away from everyone else all the time - even if I called out ahead of time, "he's not good with other dogs/he's aggressive" - no matter. My favorite comment was, "don't worry, he's friendly!" sigh... well, their dog wasn't the problem, mine was not friendly at all - he had issues, and it would have been safe and courteous to respect our space. But it's very difficult for people with dogs that get along with everyone to understand what it is like to have a dog that does not. Though I thought these people were a bit dense, I never thought they were the real "problem". MY dog was the one on leash because of his aggression/fear issues, not theirs. I always knew it was MY dog (though he was under control) that was the problem - not everyone else. I did not blame them.



Now with my two Great Danes that like everyone, are great off-leash, and can go anywhere/meet anyone - we have a strict rule to not approach leashed dogs without permission first. I know what it’s like to be on the other end of that leash, and we very much respect those with leashed dogs - but I know this is uncommon.



And they get barked at by little dogs a lot, too. Little dogs oftentimes do bark at huge dogs - it happens. My response is a shrug and to ignore it. They don't care, I don't care - there is no stress involved because I don't make it a stressful event. It’s the equivalent of plugging your ears and going, "lalalalala" - and turning to walk away or just keep on walking like they don't even exist. I also might say, in a sing-songy voice, something friendly to the little dog, for my dogs' benefit. We've never had an escalation. Because of my non-reaction, my dogs react more to flies than small dogs barking/circling them.



Of course, little dogs sometimes bark at the "wrong dog" and can very easily get seriously maimed or even killed, but, honestly, that's a risk the little dog handler is obviously taking by allowing this type of behavior, and it's a risk you take on by selecting to have a dog that is smaller than the average housecat. With such a tiny dog, you have to realize there is a certain level of risk for them getting hurt (even accidentally) out in the big world.



Just my 2 cents.

[Christie Keith]

Of course, little dogs sometimes bark at the “wrong dog” and can very easily get seriously maimed or even killed, but, honestly, that’s a risk the little dog handler is obviously taking by allowing this type of behavior, and it’s a risk you take on by selecting to have a dog that is smaller than the average housecat.



I feel that something about how I worded my post made it seem like I had a point other than that. Obviously nothing bad happened, my dogs didn't react badly, there was no actual incident.



What my actual intent was, was to point out to the owners of these dogs the risk they're taking by letting their aggressive/assertive small dogs do these things. Yes, I was definitely pissed off by the owner's attitude. I got very irritated when she said, "He's a Jack Russell, he can't help it," as if that was some kind of explanation for her own behavior. But obviously I expressed myself in such a way that made it sound like I was complaining about this little pipsqueak bothering my dogs.



My dogs weren't bothered. They knew he was a pipsqueak. ;)

[Mark Herpel]

That lady is right, you can't help THOSE little JRTs that is EXACTLY why they should be on a leash. I have a Sheppard mix and he is great with 50 dogs in the park, but the minute one of those JTRs gets aggressive towards him, its all over for that little guy. I love all dogs, but its important for the little guy's safety to keep them close and tethered. Great blog by the way.

Mark and 'Buddy'

[Marie]

My purpose in posting this is to get people who own those completely out of control dogs to be realistic about the risk they are putting their brave, foolish little dogs in. They might not be so lucky as to encounter my dogs next time.



It's not just the little dogs that are at risk, the situation is reversed for us. We live in a city neighborhood that has a ton of dogs, and a leash law. My little dogs are never without a leash because of the law and because of poor recall (a Min Pin) and fear aggression (a rescued toy Rattie). We also used to have a Westie that was dog aggressive.



My favorite comment was, “don’t worry, he’s friendly!” sigh… well, their dog wasn’t the problem, mine was not friendly at all...



Exactly. There are people in our 'hood who persist in walking their dogs without a leash. We've heard the same thing, the owner calling ahead "Oh, she's friendly" while the large Collie approaches our reeled-in dogs who are chomping at the bit to start a brawl.



Before we fenced it in, these off-leash dogs would run into our yard which was even more threatening to our leashed dogs. Despite first speaking to, then later, yelling at their owners several times, they don't get it. They don't care about a leash law and never once for a minute consider the risk to their dogs.

[Martha]

I have experienced first hand the "it's all about me my dog can do know wrong" attitude of some dog owners at dog parks, where they don't bother keeping the dog in sight, under voice control or correct any behaviors. The consequences can be devastating: This particular dog sent me to the hospital with severe, painful, career ending injuries. 300 doctor visits later, including several surgeries, my life, appearence and career are not reclaimed.



Astonishingly, the dog owners continue to take their dog to the park because "he needs his exercise."



It't typical for us not to not rock the boat by reporting dangerous dogs to the authorities, but it really helps if someone gets hurt later that this was done; it might help them get their medical bills paid. The laws are pretty strange in some states. Better, it might help prevent a person or dog from getting hurt. People had spoken to this dog owner before the day I had to be taken away by ambulance. The owner ignored requests to control the dog and no-one had reported it to the authorities.



I guess if I had one thing to add to this thread, it would be, if your dog is jumping on people, displaying aggressive body language, nipping, pay attention. Don't sugar coat it in your head. Look at it like it was someone else's dog acting that way to you or your child. Be considerate of the other people and dogs there who want to enjoy their visit and leave in the vehicle they arrived in -- not one with flashing lights and a siren. Sounds totally old fashioned, common courtesy, but it works.



Dog parks are not wild west shooting galleries; they are public parks, and we will lose them if a minority of people keep with the "dog denial" thing and their dogs keep hurting people.